Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning

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Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 1:16:58 PM

Crazypantoufle

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/30/2013
Status: offline

Hello everybody!

I am a 100% newbie at witp ae (and even at strategic multiplayer games in general).

After a small training against AI on a jap scen1 historical start, one experienced player kindly accepted to do an initiation pbem with me.

Having heard and tested myself about the limits on using the KB et Pearl against old and slow american BBs parked there, and focusing on SRA invasion rather than Pacific domination, i planned an attack on Manilla to kill some of these annoying subs. So i asked for a non historical start.

My esteemed opponent kindly accepted every HR i requested (he even encouraged me to take scen 2 so i can survive longer as IJ player). On his side he even ask for HR even more on my advantage. The only thing he asked for himself was no attack on Manilla the first day.
So my initial plan was kind of screwed.

So right now i'm thinking about 2 options:
-Choosing a completely different plan: classical PH attack, classical attacks on all sides without focusing my forces: attacks on SRA from both East and West side of Borneo, Philippines, Port Moresby and the salomons, like i did against computer. But being a total noob, and my opponent being experienced, i'm sure it would allow him to beat each of my separated forces one after the other with his gathered forces.

_Staying focused on the SRA and using KB for supporting a Mersing gambit. Because I'm really afraid to be stucked in front of Singapore or at a fortress Palembang. And this would give me a good chance to get the POW and the Repulse.
During my game against AI, i've felt the results at PH can be very random (no torpedo launched by KB's Kates during my attack on PH...), and then it takes ages for the KB to move to a good support position for the important operations in the SRA.
On the other side, Pacific would be totally out of IJ control with an intact american fleet of BBs and the KB clearly spotted in the SRA.
So no Wake, no Tarawa, no Rabaul, no Port Moresby or Salomons operation during the first phase.

What do you think about this "no port attack" starting choice? Should i go for the classical PH attack instead? I know it depends on many factors, but any advice and point of view from you would be of great help for me.

I really want to secure Singapor and Palembang as soon as possible, but maybe wasting the chance of a surprise port attack from KB on day 1 is a big mistake?

PS: sorry for my bad english.

< Message edited by Crazypantoufle -- 3/20/2014 3:31:00 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 1:51:23 PM

Spidery

Posts: 1821
Joined: 10/6/2012
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline

I like the Singapore option. You can see an example in my AAR.

You can almost guarantee to get the Prince of Wales and the Repulse. In a Pearl Harbor attack 2 BB seems about average but they are older models.

The presence of the KB in the SRA also makes the landings go well.

I sent the whole KB to the Singapore area. An alternative is to split it and send half to the Mindanao area. With that you can hope to catch all the ships from Luzon, including Boise and Houston.

One thing to watch out for is how you route the KB and where you place it on turn 1. You don't want to encounter the DD from Hong Kong or find yourself in the same hex as Force Z.

A consequence of not hitting Pearl Harbor is that Wake Island invasion has to be put on hold (although a first turn landing is another option, depending on first turn agreements). Another consequence is that the Allies will have more Catalinas for patrol and/or airlift.

(in reply to Crazypantoufle)

Post #: 2

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 3:03:29 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

You can try both. Notice that Kaga's speed is lower than the other CVs. You could send her with Ryujo and the other CVLs to suppress the DEI. That should be enough to really swing things in your favor in that theater.

Damaging a lot of planes on the ground at Pearl Harbor is a really underrated outcome of the PH strike, IMO. Just remember to take your Zeroes off of Airfield Attack if you're using the database updates - they'll get butchered if you don't. I lost double digits to flak as I did a historical first turn with the updates to flak.

If you don't go for the PH strike, I would immediately begin on taking out the Dutch (and other) air force in the SRA/DEI. Once they have no fighters left, they can't really threaten your invasion convoys as even float planes from cruisers, AVs, a CS, or AMCs will take care of any incoming torpedo planes (stringbags) and the level bombers aren't a threat. Then, once your troops are on the ground, assuming you landed enough of them, the ABDA forces can't compete there either. I'm just not sure KB is necessary for doing this - the Oscar and Zero groups that start in Indochina should be sufficient, and you can even move some over from Formosa as you can afford to take your time on Luzon. Remember to send Zeroes against the Americans and you'll be fine. You need them to kill P-40s. Oscars do just fine against Buffalos and the Dutch.

(in reply to Spidery)

Post #: 3

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 3:21:13 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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Lokasenna is right. You just have no great need for the full KB in the DEI. The Allies are so pitifully weak that it does not matter. Mini KB (I like the Kaga idea) is all you need. One underrated benefit of the PH attack is that a successful attack will kill off lots of American PBYs. The Allies are critically short of search aircraft in the early going and this does help. POW and Repulse are worth four old American BBs in my opinion. Historical turn will see them both sunk about 80% of the time. Using the non historical turn almost guarantees their escape. These are two very dangerous ships to have sneaking around the DEI in the first month of the war.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 4

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 7:46:22 PM

Gaspote

Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline

If you scared of a fortress palembang, take Singkawang, send an air HQ and some G4M with A6M. Use the 21st division in Shanghai for landing in Palembang, with 4 hex cruise speed transport. The time this division reach Palembang leave you the time to have air superiority but it's still faster than british reinforcement. Use Ryujo and the 2 Kongos task force to prevent a direct landing in Palembang or Oosthaveen.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 5

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 8:03:56 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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I like to focus on my strategy and be sure I am executing to it, not dancing around.

DEI: I need the oil. Palembang more than any other single base. The others of course, but this is a primary target. From this statement, I detail my tactics to take and secure it. EX: Singers is relevant for security. I don't want him basing 4E's there, so ....

China: I do not want to see the Chinese hordes in '45 when the Russkies start coming around, so ...

Etc ...

I find if I am focused, then everthing else falls into place. Part of this, of course, is also deciding what my opponents likely counter-moves will be ...

Anyway, just my thoughts.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Gaspote)

Post #: 6

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 10:56:10 PM

Crazypantoufle

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/30/2013
Status: offline

Thank you so much everyone! I stressed so much about this first pbem campaign, because i really want to deserve the chance to have a test of a long war. If i miss the 1st phase, i will miss so many parts of the game. Thanks to your advices, i feel a lot better now.

Spidery: Of course i read your very interesting AAR, i even printed the first part of it! But such a risky choice makes me feel a noob like me would fight the british and the dutch while letting an american shadow growing up too much on my back.
But credits to your strategy which greatly inspired my focus on SRA!

Lokasenna: Your Kaga advice will be a major point in my strategy. I've always felt mini KB alone with only few Kates quicly stuck with bombs and slow oscars was too weak to assmue a real sea and air dominance strategy in SRA. But with a few more Vals and Zero on the west side, i feel much more confident about an effective support for risky Kuantan and Mersing plannings, while still being able to fight the americans for Pacific dominance! Again, your advice could be of a war-changing influence!

But if i create a new Kaga TF from the KB, will the Kaga TF still benefit from the magical move bonus?

Crsutton: the chance to sink the POW and the Repulse from day 1 REALLY bothered me when questionning about a historical or non historical start. For me as well this is THE BIG ADVANTAGE of historical start. But on the other side, if i don't try a non historical start now, i'll never try it in the future. And during the historical start i felt there was so many thing i could have changed!
Maybe it's a big mistake, but if i loose just because of these 2 BBs, i'll never have the moral or the competence to fight the allied onslaught from mid 1943!

Gaspote: Thank you for this advice. In my first AI GC, the 21 st division's plan for me was as stupid as the 4th div plan: while my small IJN infantry groups were dying in Tarakan or Ambon, the 21st and the 4th div were sleeping in Bangkok while Kuala Lumpur was still british! About using the jap BBs, i tend to be really shy when i think:"could this allied base have some Swordfish or Vilderbeest waiting for me?". The fear of these planes on my CAs and BBs never cease to torture me. REALLY!

PaxMondo: This wised choice of focus is what really differs a real general like you who are all helping me so much, from newbies in wargames like me. Even when i try to get inspired by studying all these fine AAR, there's always some doubts like :"ok, as the economic expert number one Mike Solli showed the priority on Sumatra and Java, SRA is going to be secured in priority. But AAA explained very well the danger of letting the allies advance in Burma, otherwise i will loose Singa too early. Ok then, let's concentrate in Burma. Oh my god, Chinese forces are not yet destroyed in mid 1943, as BBB said, maybe this will cause a big mess in the western front. Arrgghh, as XXX explained, my east southern front will be so much in danger because i didn't send enough forces to Port Moresby".
I mean your mind can really be independant and creative because you know the consequences of your choices, and you can assume a situation from which you've calculated the risks.
My non experience makes me feel guilty about anything (please, spirits of matrix, protect me from "i've just lost a CV so the war is over for me" syndrome

). But i'm working on it, guys. I already promised myself to never look at Noumea or Calcutta (at least this year

), as it would be a perfect trap for a bad general like me, in case i have enough luck to be tempted one day with these spots.

< Message edited by Crazypantoufle -- 3/21/2014 12:05:18 AM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 7

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/20/2014 11:04:04 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazypantoufle

Thank you so much everyone! I stressed so much about this first pbem campaign, because i really want to deserve the chance to have a test of a long war. If i miss the 1st phase, i will miss so many parts of the game. Thanks to your advices, i feel a lot better now.

Spidery: Of course i read your very interesting AAR, i even printed the first part of it! But such a risky choice makes me feel a noob like me would fight the british and the dutch while letting an american shadow growing up too much on my back.
But credits to your strategy which greatly inspired my focus on SRA!

Lokasenna: Your Kaga advice will be a major point in my strategy. I've always felt mini KB alone with only few Kates quicly stuck with bombs and slow oscars was too weak to assmue a real sea and air dominance strategy in SRA. But with a few more Vals and Zero on the west side, i feel much more confident about an effective support for risky Kuantan and Mersing plannings, while still being able to fight the americans for Pacific dominance! Again, your advice could be of a war-changing influence!
But if i create a new Kaga TF from the KB, will the Kaga TF still benefit from the magical move bonus?

Crsutton: the chance to sink the POW and the Repulse from day 1 REALLY bothered me when questionning about a historical or non historical start. For me as well this is THE BIG ADVANTAGE of historical start. But on the other side, if i don't try a non historical start now, i'll never try it in the future. And during the historical start i felt there was so many thing i could have changed!
Maybe it's a big mistake, but if i loose just because of these 2 BBs, i'll never have the moral or the competence to fight the allied onslaught from mid 1943!

Gaspote: Thank you for this advice. In my first AI GC, the 21 st division's plan for me was as stupid as the 4th div plan: while my small IJN infantry groups were dying in Tarakan or Ambon, the 21st and the 4th div were sleeping in Bangkok while Kuala Lumpur was still british! About using the jap BBs, i tend to be really shy when i think:"could this allied base have some Swordfish or Vilderbeest waiting for me?". The fear of these planes on my CAs and BBs never cease to torture me. REALLY!

PaxMondo: This wised choice of focus is what really differs a real general like you who are all helping me so much, from newbies in wargames like me. Even when i try to get inspired by studying all these fine AAR, there's always some doubts like :"ok, as the economic expert number one Mike Solli showed the priority on Sumatra and Java, SRA is going to be secured in priority. But Lokasenna explained very well the danger of letting the allies advance in Burma, otherwise i will loose Singa too early. Ok then, let's concentrate in Burma. Oh my god, Chinese forces are not yet destroyed in mid 1943, as Pax said, maybe this will cause a big mess in the western front. Arrgghh, as XXX explained, my east southern front will be so much in danger because i didn't send enough forces to Port Moresby".
I mean your mind can really be independant and creative because you know the consequences of your choices, and you can assume a situation from which you've calculated the risks.
My non experience makes me feel guilty about anything (please, spirits of matrix, protect me from "i've just lost a CV so the war is over for me" syndrome). But i'm working on it, guys. I already promised myself to never look at Noumea or Calcutta, as it would be a perfect trap for a bad general like me, in case i have enough luck to be tempted one day with these spots.

You would need to put Kaga into one of the Magic * TFs - one of those with a "(*)" in the name at the beginning. At Etorofu, where KB starts, I think you also get the DDs that bombard Midway and TF2, which is the AO fleet. So... you'd have to transfer her to one of those, and have her go meet the Ryujo TF somewhere.

You can calculate out a rendezvous point. I believe the magic bonus is 4 or 5 times normal movement for one phase (there is only one movement phase in Dec 7). Keep in mind that this is going to affect how you set up your PH strike as well. I might set all Vals on Airfield and all Kates on Port, but then again maybe not... Val bombs can damage anything but the BBs. Up to you.

(in reply to Crazypantoufle)

Post #: 8

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/21/2014 1:58:05 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazypantoufle

... I already promised myself to never look at Noumea or Calcutta (at least this year), as it would be a perfect trap for a bad general like me, in case i have enough luck to be tempted one day with these spots.

Not to confuse you, but on Dec 7, 1941, I've already decided if Calcutta (or Noumea) would be on my agenda. If not, they are not part of the strategy. If yes, then part of my opening moves would be in support of those, particularly Calcutta. Why? If I am deciding to go there, it needs to be early '42 and that means I need to have units identified and in position to start prepping right after their Dec 41 first objective.

Effective strategy, as opposed to tactics, requires you to look forward at least 12 months in this game as in RL. Since the IJ offensive generally winds down with the end of '42, that means everything that I intend to ever take is already decided by me on Dec 7, 1941.

In a first game, I would suggest you strongly consider just the historic envelope. Done right, this simple strategy can give you a win in the game.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Crazypantoufle)

Post #: 9

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/27/2014 7:57:12 PM

Crazypantoufle

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/30/2013
Status: offline

Hello again, dear masochist IJ colleagues!

I've read and thought again and again about your smart advices.
And the more i think about this, the more i feel beginning with a non historical start (which mainly means missing the great chance to sink both POW and Repulse from day 1) without being able to attack Manilla, just to have the kaga next to Singapore and to land on kuantan on day 1, would maybe be a mistake.

Do i just expect too much about the presence of the kaga alone in Singa theatre? Do you also feel a non historical start just including the kaga in the DEI from day 1 does not worth it?
Shouldn't i get the historical start great chance of hurting Z force instead?
Gaspote's advice about Palembang's air blockade from Singkawang seem to confort this point of view.

Please help me, witp ae friends, as i'm already very late on my planned schedule, and i don't want to abuse of my much respected opponent patience.

My ideal plan, as a total newbie in strategic games, is to have the historical japanese envelope, as PaxMondo wisely guessed (with japanese Mandalay - Sumatra - Java - Timor - Port Moresby - Lunga border being the Holy Graal for me on mid 42), and the DEI being the number 1 priority on order to survive enough to be able to learn anything usefull from the mid-end game.

< Message edited by Crazypantoufle -- 3/27/2014 9:55:13 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 10

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 3/29/2014 9:19:23 PM

Crazypantoufle

Posts: 33
Joined: 7/30/2013
Status: offline

I heard your telepathically expressed encouragements to stop my blabla about an ideal start

. So i just started a historical start. And you were right: PoW and Repulse sunk, and no BBs sunk in Pearl ("no torpedo attack" curse again

) but still damaged for a long time, and 16 catalinas destroyed and 80 more damaged.

Let's see how it goes! Singkawang, here i come!

< Message edited by Crazypantoufle -- 3/29/2014 10:49:01 PM >

(in reply to Crazypantoufle)

Post #: 11

RE: Advices needed for IJ campaign 7th december planning - 4/8/2014 9:36:40 AM

Erkki

Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazypantoufle

I heard your telepathically expressed encouragements to stop my blabla about an ideal start. So i just started a historical start. And you were right: PoW and Repulse sunk, and no BBs sunk in Pearl ("no torpedo attack" curse again) but still damaged for a long time, and 16 catalinas destroyed and 80 more damaged.

Let's see how it goes! Singkawang, here i come!

Hi,

As you noticed historical start may work as good as you very likely nail the PoW and Repulse. Otherwise they can be highly annoying in the DEI area and need to be accounted for... Many a Japanese player have had their invasion fleet or 2 sunk by them, or even their battleships!

Unhistorical start with 1 big CV in DEI can help advancing quicker there but OTOH even if you get in range of enemy warships, bad weather or coordination problems or just plain pure luck can still ruin your air attacks, which may yet happen only after the 2 RN ships have already shred your invasion force. Whichever target the KB hits on day 1, maximizing firepower there is widely considered the best option, be that target PH or Manila.

GJ, you have now removed the greatest threat to your landings and shipping in the DEI. Just 2 or 3 squadrons worth of old, slow and vulnerable, yet dangerous if their targets arent provided a protecting fighter umbrella, biplane torpedo bombers left.

_____________________________

(in reply to Crazypantoufle)

Post #: 12

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