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Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 2:52:40 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Questions

Does the size of the base matter and its location ( nearer the allies of former allied base) or is it just random chance with the message Yamato is in Truk???

Does it matter how long the ship has been there? Does that increase the chance of a report? Do the reports suffer FOW?

Its 43 and I am trying to keep the allied player from learning the disposition of my CV as he slowly advances.

Any tips on reducing the chances of the sig net working etc?

Please note I have no idea as I have never played the allied side.

Thanks

cav
Post #: 1
RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 3:17:14 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		I do not know the answer to any of those questions. But, one relevant thing that I *think* I've observed, is that search aircraft being in the vicinity of an enemy TF might sometimes pick up radio traffic. Not sure about it. AFAIK the developers haven't revealed anything about SigInt.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 5:00:24 PM   
tocaff


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Status: offline 		Keep your CVs out of range of your opponent's air search radius and don't base them where there are Coast Watchers. No measures are 100%, but those 2 things are a good start.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 5:18:27 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Questions

Does the size of the base matter and its location ( nearer the allies of former allied base) or is it just random chance with the message Yamato is in Truk???

Does it matter how long the ship has been there? Does that increase the chance of a report? Do the reports suffer FOW?

Its 43 and I am trying to keep the allied player from learning the disposition of my CV as he slowly advances.

Any tips on reducing the chances of the sig net working etc?

Please note I have no idea as I have never played the allied side.

Thanks

cav


As has been said the internal workings of Sigint generation has never been revealed. As an Allied player I generally believe it though.

If you're worried about your opponent getting Sigint that says "Akagi spotted at x,y" that is incredibly rare. Happens once or twice a game, if that. Far less than RL Sigint provided.

Most of the time I see IJN carriers due to their own air ops. If a sub's detection level goes from zero to 5 when there is nothing red for thirty hexes, I pay attention to that. When the Combat Events file says "Torpedo bomber sighted at x,y" and x,y is a big, empty piece of blue I notice that. Those have to be taken with a grain of salt though, as it is my firm belief that any plane not 100% IDed is, in the game, a "torpedo bomber." So it could be a Glen from an I-boat. But I treat it like a Kate.

So you, as Japan, have to do trade-offs. You want ASW air search for your transiting carriers? Risk it being seen if you set it at, say, five hexes. If you fear subs and don't want to get pinged, transit on a course where subs are unlikely and keep the air group grounded. Time and fuel, but safer. Trade offs.

Most Allied Sigint is "Unit X located at Base Y"--maybe 60-70% of the lines are this. Most of the rest is "Radio traffic at base Y" which usually means loading, arrival, departures of ships.

About 2-3% of the time it's "Base X has 3400 men".

That's the bulk of it. He probably won't find your carriers from Sigint. If he finds them it'll be because of what you did and the choices you made, combined with his own search efforts. Depending on era and location these can be robust or minimal.


< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/24/2014 6:23:33 PM >

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 5:54:54 PM   
pontiouspilot


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Status: offline 		The intell which seems very accurate are tips about troop loading for certain destinations. When I do play Jap. side I often set false preps for feinted locations hoping that it gets reported.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 7:54:08 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

The intell which seems very accurate are tips about troop loading for certain destinations. When I do play Jap. side I often set false preps for feinted locations hoping that it gets reported.


Yeah, that's a category I forgot. On a typical day I get 1-2 of these. They can either be "troops loading for" or "Unit X planning for." The second kind is more common. For the first kind I filter it by unit type. If it's a base force going to someplace I figure needs a base force I believe it. I might re-zone a sub or two. If it's a major combat unit loading for a place Id take if I were Japan I believe it, but I might not do anything extra about it. I should already be doing all I can about that place. Playing good Japan players as I am I know they can spoof the intel. Sometimes that has a cost to them in fuel and time or prep.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 8:14:59 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Any tips on reducing the chances of the sig net working etc?

Please note I have no idea as I have never played the allied side.


If you had you'd realize that the SIGINT that you're worried about is not worth much. It bears almost no relationship to the historical penetration of Japanese signals communications. You will never walk into a Midway type ambush because of Allied SIGINT. Since even the "35th whatever brigade loaded on the Asso Maru" doesn't come with destination AND current location the likelihood of ambush is next to zero as well.

The Allied Player may, with a concerted effort and over considerable time, put together a reasonable facsimile of your OOB at a particular location that he intends to invade. But you shouldn't have the shipping resources to play "shell games with your units".

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 9:14:49 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
If you had you'd realize that the SIGINT that you're worried about is not worth much.


I have absolutely never counted 2x2 together and knew an invasion target 3 months in advance plus tracked the invasion fleet via intel report 4 days before it finally moved into search plane range. Absolutely never.

This did not happen. I promise.



< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/24/2014 10:26:52 PM >

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/24/2014 9:44:53 PM   
offenseman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
If you had you'd realize that the SIGINT that you're worried about is not worth much.


I have absolutely never counted 2x2 together and knew an invasion target 3 months in advance plus tracked the invasion fleet via intel report 4 days before it finally moved into search plane range. Absolutely never.

This did not happen. I promise.




Which one? The late Marcus move?

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 6:05:04 AM   
LoBaron


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Status: offline 		No, but it is another example.

Although in this case we knew the target and the probable unit strenght - IIRC Rob and I even had a discussion about this invasion - but I completely misjudged d-day as we did not expect you to do an amphqibious landing anymore at this stage.

I´ll send you a mail on the details of the event I was talking about.




Bottom line is:

Intel, if used at a specific point in time, and only with focus on a single data point, is exactly as powerless as spence said.

But if you combine lots of different data points pulled from intel with additional information and a healthy dose of gut feeling when combining all the data, you might be wrong at times, but also have a pretty good chance to end up with a Midway like dataset.


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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 11:10:41 AM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		OK thanks for all the info so maybe a nit less useful then I thought. In 43 the allies need to know where ambush may happen he only has 1-2 CV left and I have lost 2 so I still have the edge.

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Post #: 11
RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 3:28:41 PM   
blueatoll


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Status: offline 		While not on a Midway scale, I did get a SigInt that said that the Kaga was operating out of Rabaul and I knew from a previous day's SigInt that there was a significant amphib force on it's way to Milne Bay. Piecing those two tidbits of information together, I burned the engines out on 3 CVs (Enterprise, Lexington, Wasp) and all the cruisers and DDs I could muster coming from Noumea. I caught the IJN carriers Kaga and Soryu (and the next day the transports) off of Milne Bay and put both of them in the deep six. LBs/PBs based in Port Moresby and Portland Roads spotted the carriers and we were off to the races. My CV task force was located 3 hexes west of Milne Bay in between Oz and New Guinea. Beaufighters and Beauforts got slaughtered on their torpedo attack from PM and then came the USN (much like at Midway) from 12,000 feet. End results of the 2 day battle:

IJN - 2 CVs sunk, 1 CA sunk, 1 CA w/5 bomb hits, 1 CL w/1 torp, 7 APs sunk, 3 DDs sunk, 1 AM sunk, 8000+ troops at the bottom of the Coral Sea.
Allies - 1 CV w/2 bomb hits, 1 CA with 1 bomb hit, 1 squadrons of Beaufighters at 20% strength, 1 squadron of Beauforts at 15% strength, about 15 USN carrier planes shot down, 3-7 points of engine damage to 16 ships. The Wasp was in Sydney drydocks for 18 days and all the other ships were ready at Brisbane or Sydney before that.

That certainly felt very Midway to me and it was all based on SigInt.

< Message edited by blueatoll -- 3/25/2014 4:31:07 PM >

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 3:37:36 PM   
offenseman


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From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
Status: offline 		That is outstanding use of sigint. well done. The individual pieces of info may not mean much sometimes, but when added together can be very useful indeed. A player has to do some of the detective work to add 2 and 2 together.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 3:40:19 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		One thing I THINK happens that might be worth discussing is if you send a fleet out and then once at sea, change their target you might get a radio location of that unit as it breaks radio silence. Anecdotally I think this is happening, thoughts??? Then answer here is to NOT reroute a TF at sea unless absolutely needed... Hal

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 6:47:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One thing I THINK happens that might be worth discussing is if you send a fleet out and then once at sea, change their target you might get a radio location of that unit as it breaks radio silence. Anecdotally I think this is happening, thoughts??? Then answer here is to NOT reroute a TF at sea unless absolutely needed... Hal


When I see those "radio at empty hex x,y" I always figure it's a sub phoning home. Never thought it could be a course change. Hmm.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 6:54:32 PM   
offenseman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One thing I THINK happens that might be worth discussing is if you send a fleet out and then once at sea, change their target you might get a radio location of that unit as it breaks radio silence. Anecdotally I think this is happening, thoughts??? Then answer here is to NOT reroute a TF at sea unless absolutely needed... Hal


Like Bullwinkle I always assumed it was subs as well and sometimes it is obvious that it is either false or a sub. It seems very plausible.

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Post #: 16
RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 7:51:30 PM   
dr.hal


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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Well a couple have proven to be something far more sinister than a sub... But I've not done a systematic check on this....

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 8:40:08 PM   
capthook

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
When I see those "radio at empty hex x,y" I always figure it's a sub phoning home. Never thought it could be a course change. Hmm.


All too often, when I bother to check, those messages turn out to be my own TFs.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/25/2014 8:42:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: capthook


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
When I see those "radio at empty hex x,y" I always figure it's a sub phoning home. Never thought it could be a course change. Hmm.


All too often, when I bother to check, those messages turn out to be my own TFs.


Good point, and true.

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Post #: 19
RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/26/2014 3:05:22 AM   
Feltan


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		The SIGINT in the game is a gross abstraction.

The Japanese SIGINT is absolutely worthless, while in real life it had some limited value -- mostly from direction finding.

The Allied SIGINT's effectiveness is seriously understated -- and you'd need a staff of plotters and a map updated daily to ferret out what the game sort of provides.

Its fine by me for a game. The Allies occasionally get a nugget upon which they can act. If you modeled it closer to real life the value of the game would diminish.

Regards,
Feltan

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/28/2014 8:12:46 PM   
CaptDave

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The Allied SIGINT's effectiveness is seriously understated -- and you'd need a staff of plotters and a map updated daily to ferret out what the game sort of provides.



In that respect, it could arguably me the most realistic portion of the game! Seldom, if ever, did a single piece of intelligence suffice on its own; it took experts piecing together multiple items to adequately analyze the information obtained.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/28/2014 11:55:39 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptDave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The Allied SIGINT's effectiveness is seriously understated -- and you'd need a staff of plotters and a map updated daily to ferret out what the game sort of provides.



In that respect, it could arguably me the most realistic portion of the game! Seldom, if ever, did a single piece of intelligence suffice on its own; it took experts piecing together multiple items to adequately analyze the information obtained.


That's what commanders had staff for.

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RE: Allied Sig Int - Questions - 3/30/2014 3:16:39 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

That's what commanders had staff for


Yeah, wish I could afford to hire a staff with this beast.

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