Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Dauntless42

Wars may not be won by evacuations, but as evacuations go, this was one of the best ever!

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ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Hats off to you

I didn't think it was possible

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ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

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ORIGINAL: koniu

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He'll be equipping his CVs first...but then, from July 43, i really need to worry about his DS... By that time i need my CVs to be equipped with A6M5c (for escort duties) and A6M8 for CAP.

Explain why M5c for escort and M8 for CAP.
Personally I will use them vice-versa.

In KB CAP speed is not so important as firepower. M5c defending KB will probably have dive bonus all the time so he if fly with 70-80+XP pilots will be good enough to deal with F6F, and his firepower will be deadly to enemy planes. Remember one shot one kill.

On other hand M8 is perfect escort fighter. Only 23mph slower from F6F so he have chance to use his maneuverability in fight. In escort You dont need to kill You need to stay alive long enough to keep enemy fighters from You bombers as long as passable

In summary in CAP You need to kill as fast as passable so firepower go first. In escort You need to have defensive skills so speed and maneuverability.

I see what u mean and i agree on 100% on what u said.
However, A6M8 can go on 8 hexes withdrop tanks on EXTENDED range, while A6M5c, using DTs, stays on normal range going at 8 hexes.
That's pretty decisive imho. extended range is always a bad thing for coordination, op losses and survivability in general.
The A6M5c has only 1 more heavy CL MG more than the A6M8...not that much, even if i see your points and i agree on them: firepower on CAP means a lot.

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

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ORIGINAL: koniu

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He'll be equipping his CVs first...but then, from July 43, i really need to worry about his DS... By that time i need my CVs to be equipped with A6M5c (for escort duties) and A6M8 for CAP.

Explain why M5c for escort and M8 for CAP.
Personally I will use them vice-versa.

In KB CAP speed is not so important as firepower. M5c defending KB will probably have dive bonus all the time so he if fly with 70-80+XP pilots will be good enough to deal with F6F, and his firepower will be deadly to enemy planes. Remember one shot one kill.

On other hand M8 is perfect escort fighter. Only 23mph slower from F6F so he have chance to use his maneuverability in fight. In escort You dont need to kill You need to stay alive long enough to keep enemy fighters from You bombers as long as passable

In summary in CAP You need to kill as fast as passable so firepower go first. In escort You need to have defensive skills so speed and maneuverability.

I see what u mean and i agree on 100% on what u said.
However, A6M8 can go on 8 hexes withdrop tanks on EXTENDED range, while A6M5c, using DTs, stays on normal range going at 8 hexes.
That's pretty decisive imho. extended range is always a bad thing for coordination, op losses and survivability in general.
The A6M5c has only 1 more heavy CL MG more than the A6M8...not that much, even if i see your points and i agree on them: firepower on CAP means a lot.

I agree - the most important difference between the 2 is the range difference. It depends on where you're fighting... Personally, I don't place much stock in being able to get an 8-hex strike off reliably, and therefore being out of range of Allied CVs. There's too much guesswork, and only a few places on the map where movement is constrained in such a way that you can go for that 8-hexes with any measure of confidence.

Still, the A6M8 only goes to 5 hexes on extended range without DTs, and only 4 on normal range. So you'll need to use drop tanks for your strikes in either case, and doesn't that carry potential fatigue/ops penalties also, similar to flying at extended range without DTs? Although I have noticed that the range-related penalties for pilots isn't so bad on 1 day of action... 2, it depends. And how many CV battles are you going to have that go to a Day 3, or even a Day 2?

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

There is one more problem with A6M8, in my opinion important too. A6M8 is using Ha-33 engine not Ha-35.

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you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

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you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view. ;)

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

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you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view. ;)

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

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you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view. ;)

What I mean is that I'd have both. It's not that big of a deal to convert half of your A6M production to the 8 and leave the rest at the 5c - maybe a couple of engines per day, and you build out the squadrons that need them, and a pool for them, and then turn it back off.

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ORIGINAL: crsutton

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ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Hats off to you

I didn't think it was possible

Quite possible. Only way the Allies can stop an operation such as this is with it's fleet. But too risky because GJ controls the only decent port with a repair yard around. Crippled Allied ships have nowhere to go. Obvert probably was wise not to wade into this one. The Japanese fleet is still in superior at this stage of the war. Until that changes evacuation while risky are not difficult to pull off. Excellent timing by Nic. A well thought out gambit coordinated with the collapse of the China Theater. A little more delay and it would be much harder to do.

I personally think that a hard Allied drive through Patna towards Calcutta and Chittagong would have made more sense. The terrain and roads favor Allied tank forces and KB could not be a factor until the Allies neared the coast. The end result would have been the same, with an evacuation of Madras and abandonment of Celyon. It is the growth of Allied sea power that ends the India campaign. No matter the success on land.

Watching this AAR and my own current campaign has solidified my thoughts on the India gambit. Which I think are safe to post at this point.

1. It should be all or nothing. Bring everything or don't do it. You should bring every mobile unit you can spare.
2. Sooner the better. If you are going for India, then Singapore has to be knocked out as fast as possible and you should be in India by 4/1/42.
3. Unless you are going for AV, you have to have an exit strategy.
4. Capturing resources does not matter. The gain does not make up for the expense. So there are only two real objectives. Auto victory or to smash as much of the Commonwealth forces as you can while taking China out of the war. Otherwise don't do it.
5. You must deny Columbo to the Allies (capture Celyon) while operating in India.
6. It is a pretty good idea to take Perth to deny quick movement of forces between OZ and India. If not that, an investment in naval forces to interdict the route.
7. The biggest drawback to a move into India is that you will need KB for great blocks of time. A good Allied player should take advantage of this by using his carriers to grab forward territory in the Pacific. (Is is a mistake for the Allies to send carriers to India?) So, if you fight in India, you had better have a good idea of what your priorities are in the Pacific.

Lets discuss..

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ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Haven't i told u how much do i love the George?!?! This wonderfull Sentai has accumulated more than 50 kills for 2 losses in less than 1 month of operations....

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ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Advance as fast as possible towards Paoshan-Tsuyun line.
Once the connection with Burma is estabilished i'll start the slow retreat from Dimampur-Imphal line towards Kalemyo-Katha Mitikyna and getting back to Burma. Hopefully, by the time the allies have estabilished a strong presence in Assam (building up all their bases), i'll be safely back to Burma, with a sttrong air presence backing me up

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Going back to the comment about "Is it a mistake for the Allies to bring CVs to contest India?"... in Early 1942, absolutely a mistake. The Allies would be better served, strategically, with grabbing up and fortifying forward territory in the Pacific, which I think is what makes an Indian campaign so dangerous for Japan. I think extended SOPAC and Australian adventures are more productive in terms of time and space.

In any case, there are multiple things that make India/Bay of Bengal the most perilous place on the map for the USN CVs if Japan is going for India in Spring '42:

1) LBA - Aside from Colombo, and to an extent Calcutta/Madras, there are going to be no supporting airbases. By contrast, Japan will have Rangoon at the very least and possibly Port Blair - from which they can reach the entire Bay of Bengal with Nells, albeit without escorts... but they could still participate in a CV clash here.

2) Visibility - Allied recon in this area is very poor for the first year of the war. You would need to transfer many Catalinas here from the Pacific, and you would need to do so before you knew for sure that your opponent was coming for India. This is a gamble as there aren't enough Catalinas to cover the Pacific as it is in those early months, but I suppose you could stopgap with bomber units if necessary. But that has its own costs, particularly in training up your pilots.

3) Obvious point here, but CV aircraft quality disparity. Even if a lot of the prewar USN pilots are of very good quality, their planes aren't. And beyond quality, there is quantity: one big battle and, even assuming you achieve a draw, your SBD and F4F pools are really going to be hurting.

4) Movement. It's constricted, whether you're operating off the west coast of India because Japan already has Ceylon and is landing at Madras (or wherever), or within the Bay of Bengal. There's only one way to run. Lots of land, not so much ocean. Mavis units from Sabang (and Blair) can reach a very long ways, so cripples fleeing from a battle in the BoB will be at risk. And if you lose, having to run back to Ceylon... KB can burn that down, too. Depending on the timing, even MKB can punch through the British airpower in the region.


Obvert did the right thing with his CVs, IMO. I think China falls either way - whether Japan goes India or China with these units - so the middle of the Pacific is the consequence I find most interesting here. Granted, Obvert made his own choices to kick GJ out of India at this point, which will have their own consequences... but I think they will be less costly, in terms of strategic opportunity cost, than Japan going for India to begin with. Just my .02 on the whole thing (what to do with CVs is almost always a macro consideration).


What's the earliest you could get the USN CVs to the IO anyway? If Lex/Enterprise sail around Australia, they could probably make it to Ceylon by February sometime. Saratoga could sail to Panama to meet Yorktown at the end of December, and be in the IO in late February, perhaps?

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ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Well played, Grey Joy. Pretty much a mirror of the Gallipoli withdrawal. You continue to entertain the peanut gallery.

Obvert diverted a lot of resources to India that weren't used in gaining ground in CenPac, SoPac or SWPac. That's a very large opportunity cost. As a result, future thrusts in those directions will be more of a slog.

Cheers,
CC

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ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

This is how CBI theatre looks now

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ORIGINAL: Sangeli
On the other hand, I don't see why you are planning on voluntarily giving up the 3x terrain between Chittagong and Akyab. Make the Allies pay for every inch of that jungle. It's not like your army is so stretched or depleted that you can't afford to fight in a forward position like that in good terrain.