Troops riding tanks ... again

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Troops riding tanks ... again

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Troops riding tanks ... again - 3/14/2001 5:13:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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From: Lancaster, PA, USA
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I know I'm beating a long dead horse here, but I had a conversation with a WW2 veteran today that made me bring this topic up one more time. I had a long talk today with a fellow who served in the US Army, 29th ID from 1940 through the end of WW2. He started out as a rifleman and ended as a company First Sergeant. One point that he made very clearly was that his unit, a regular Rifle Company, regularly rode into battle on the back of tanks and TD's . The unit had an SOP (Standard Operating Proceedure) on how to load various vehicles. Generally the squad split up into two sections of no more than 6 men each. These 6 men sat on the back deck of the Shermans, 3 to a side. He also pointed out that they rode on the tanks until they came under fire, then they dismounted and assaulted on foot. He deemed it to be suicidal to ride a tank in the face of rifle and machine gun fire. He also complained that they took a lot of casualties from artillery while riding on the tanks. As an aside, he also said that they never used the intercom-linked telephones that were attached to the rear of the Shermans. They communicated by yelling loudly at the TC. He said that they operated with tanks all the time and worked together well.

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- 3/14/2001 5:45:00 AM

Pack Rat

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From: north central Pennsylvania USA
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It would be interesting to be able to combine and split groups of men on the fly. For example you've got 2 men left in a rifle squad and a tank crew without a tank, combine them into a "what ever squad". Maybe such a group would become 3rd line in effectiveness. I'm not sure if it would be practical though. Probably would have a few abusers of this type of thing. Still would be nice to not lose men when you mount them on a tank during setup.

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- 3/14/2001 6:18:00 AM

murx

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I got a different prob with those pescy crews from dead tanks ... if the tank lost its maingun the crew ends up with NO weapon thus not able to use smoke even if they have smoke rounds left. For combining crews with normal soldiers and sending them in - hey, be realistic, you know what training a gunner/driver or comander costs ? Giving someone a rifle and tell them how to pull the trigger is easy (thus *grunts* are more or less 'dispensible', the SU had poor trained foot soldiers, as had the VK or the rebells in Afghanistan, or look at the VolksSturm/VolksGrenadiere). But the training of a gunner doing the range calculations in a battle and a few different other things need training. Or just easier, give the gunner and the grunt each one hundred rounds for training fire, guess who shot more $ in the air. So crews wont fight back but just will try to get their asses out of harms way. Esp. in campaign it's a good idea to get the crew alive so you dont loose their experience. murx

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- 3/14/2001 6:48:00 AM

Pack Rat

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quote:

Originally posted by murx: I got a different prob with those pescy crews from dead tanks ... if the tank lost its maingun the crew ends up with NO weapon thus not able to use smoke even if they have smoke rounds left. For combining crews with normal soldiers and sending them in - hey, be realistic, you know what training a gunner/driver or comander costs ? So crews wont fight back but just will try to get their asses out of harms way. Esp. in campaign it's a good idea to get the crew alive so you dont loose their experience. murx

Yeah I hope the "no weapon" crew is fixed. No I agree with you that combining different crews together probably isn't a good thing. I might have an idea how much it costs to train a weapon (tank, AA unit, gun) crew, I was one :) But we were armed to the teeth with weapons to put the average WW2 unit to shame even with out our main gun. Could I use them, hehe, they were my toys and there was nothing I picked up I wasn't good with. I was a terror with the M-60 (light machinegun) and the 50cal. Expeareanced crews are worth their weight in gold in campaigns and I often had units just for crew retrieval. Hell whole minor fights would erupt just trying to get my crews back to safety. Not unlike what I'm sure really happened.

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- 3/14/2001 8:53:00 AM

BruceAZ

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It's funny that in all the WW2 pictures of GI's riding US tanks, they seem to be always packed. In fact, I just pulled out my old Time-Life set and the average count on the tank was 8.3!

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- 3/14/2001 10:19:00 AM

murx

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Originally posted by Pack Rat ... But we were armed to the teeth with weapons to put the average WW2 unit to shame even with out our main gun. ... I agree, I was trained on the Leopard 2 A1 a few years ago. If I remember right we had quit an arsenal of weapons to take with us when abandoning the tank. Like 2 pistols, 2 Uzis, 2 MG-2 (now MG-3), flarepistol, 6+ handgrenades, one AT-mine... if lucky even 1-2 Kg explosives... (and some 14.000 rounds 7.62mm) But I guess if something would make me leave my home, err, rolling fortress there is something more serious to think about then to get all equipment out :p Esp. with probably some or all of the crew wounded. murx

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- 3/14/2001 10:26:00 AM

Grimm

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While we are talking about saving crews - has anything been done in v5.0 to make this easier? I always have a problem with the crews wanting to continue forward to their assigned objective. I would really like a way to tell them to "fall back" with out using a bunch of orders or changing the objective for the rest of the unit. Thanks! :D

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- 3/14/2001 10:49:00 AM

Pack Rat

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Grimm, sounds like you're using C&C. Would not picking them (crews) up with trucks or the like solve your problem? Just send them back to the rear kicking and screaming, nothing they can do if they are loaded.

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- 3/14/2001 5:00:00 PM

DELTA32

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From: Girard, Pennsylvania, USA
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quote:

As an aside, he also said that they never used the intercom-linked telephones that were attached to the rear of the Shermans. They communicated by yelling loudly at the TC. He said that they operated with tanks all the time and worked together well.[/B]

I think you may have misunderstood his comments on this one. When you have the engine running, and your CVC helmet on, I challenge even SUPERMAN to hear a grunt yelling at you from as little as 8 feet away ! Besides...picture your rifle squad behind a Sherman, using the beast as cover against a defending enemy....rifle and MG fire....and the TC is going to stick HIS head out the hatch so YOU don't have to use the exterior handset ? I WOULDN'T ! Delta 3-2

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- 3/14/2001 5:45:00 PM

MindSpy

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[MINDSPY Gee just the thought of having to work close beside something that is as much a danger to me as the incoming fire whould upset me forget trying to communicate with it at 6 inches or even 3 metres with hand signals. I'd be concerned that the TC looking directly into my positon would give me away!!! MINDSPY

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- 3/15/2001 9:16:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA 3-2: I think you may have misunderstood his comments on this one. When you have the engine running, and your CVC helmet on, I challenge even SUPERMAN to hear a grunt yelling at you from as little as 8 feet away ! Besides...picture your rifle squad behind a Sherman, using the beast as cover against a defending enemy....rifle and MG fire....and the TC is going to stick HIS head out the hatch so YOU don't have to use the exterior handset ? I WOULDN'T ! Delta 3-2

Maybe I wasn't clear. I think all the Shermans had an intercom-linked phone attached to the rear of the tank. It was specifically designed for use by infantrymen to communicate with the tank crew. I had read that the infantry seldom used these phones (most recently, I read it in "The Bloody Woods" about the Huertgen Forest battles.) The M60 tanks had the same sort of phone and they worked just fine in theory but I can't recall ever actually using them in training with the grunts. Actually my main inference of this post was that it would be nice to be able to split squads up into sections so that you could losd them onto tanks without having to disband part of the squad.

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- 3/15/2001 8:14:00 PM

Tommy

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quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: Maybe I wasn't clear. I think all the Shermans had an intercom-linked phone attached to the rear of the tank. It was specifically designed for use by infantrymen to communicate with the tank crew. I had read that the infantry seldom used these phones (most recently, I read it in "The Bloody Woods" about the Huertgen Forest battles.) The M60 tanks had the same sort of phone and they worked just fine in theory but I can't recall ever actually using them in training with the grunts. Actually my main inference of this post was that it would be nice to be able to split squads up into sections so that you could losd them onto tanks without having to disband part of the squad.

Kluckenbill, You took the words right out of my mouth! I just read that page in "The Bloody Forest" last night. The GI said that the phones rarely worked and they never used them. They whacked on the tank to get the commanders attention then hand signaled or yelled. They even had an SOP for riding the tanks. On the History channel Monday night "Sherman Assault" showed several times, infantry riding 3 x 3 on the back of the Sherman, just as stated in the post above. They also interviewed Tank Commanders who said they always rode with their head out of the hatch. "The Bloody Forest" talked about German snipers trained to shoot the Tank Commanders; thus taking the entire tank out of the action for a while. Does this sound like our SPWAW snipers "killing" tanks? It should! Tommy

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