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Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:31:18 PM   
neofit

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline 		Hi,

My civ is fairly new, I just got my Construction to size 230. I wonder what is the difference between an Escort, a Frigate and a Destroyer. All types can be built to the same size of 230, all have the same required components, the same speed with the same number of engines, etc. So are these just types of ships created for the AI, with hardcoded upgrade paths, hardcoded tactical usage, etc.? Usually in these types of games the type also defines the size, like an Escort is of size n, frigate 2n, etc.
Post #: 1
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:37:06 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Escort, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, capital are all the same in rules.

The classes have different AI setups, and the AI wants to build them at a fixed distribution, and have a fleet setup according to the same distribution.

In some older versions there was pirates using the smaller designs, but this should be history since Shadows. Back then having escort as the most powerful ship could have drawbacks :)

(in reply to neofit)
Post #: 2
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:38:16 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		There somewhat related to different mission types, but it's not followed hard core.

Mainly it gives an easy option to designate differing ships types for different uses/duties - fast/maneuverable to slower/more powerful, and so forth.

There are no rules it's up to you.

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RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:40:56 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Yes, it takes a bit of getting used to, but the ships classes seem to be there primarily to help the AI. Escort, frigate, destroyer cruiser and capital ship can all be designed the same size and with the same equipment. You can design all your military ships to just one of the classes, if you like. Or you could set your own rules for size and say "all my escorts will be under size 400", "all my capital ships will be over size 900" and so on - in that case it would be up to you to enforce the limits when you create the design.

< Message edited by Osito -- 5/26/2014 5:41:59 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:42:15 PM   
Zarkis

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline 		As I understand it the AI uses the different ship types differently, but other then that there is no difference between Escorts, Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers, and Dreadnaughts. Personally I would prefer that each ship class gets some special bonuses (like speed and stealth for escorts) and an upper limit for size (with the exception of the dreadnaught). If done properly it wouldn't interfere with the AI usage of each class and would make those ship classes realy distinct.

< Message edited by Zarkis -- 5/26/2014 5:42:53 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 4:57:50 PM   
neofit

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline 		There seem to be hardcoded upgrade paths. I am leaving the maximum on auto to see what's what, and I noticed that with my current size of 230, auto design updates keep the frigates smaller (203 size FFs vs 227 size DDs), the DDs have missiles while the FFs don't, the FFs are kept at a slower speed than DDs. I only found in Empire Settings a way to change what types of ships I'd want the Advisor to propose me, like for instance 0% of Escorts, but the upgrade paths seem fixed.

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Post #: 6
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 5:01:47 PM   
neofit

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline 		Forgot the question. I haven't had any real combat beside a few scraps with some space seafood, but I'm wondering: if I start messing up with the ship loadout and ship types, like if I create DDs only, since combat is mostly automated, won't my AI ships and fleet fight not know how to fight properly in large scale battles if the fleet combat AI has been tuned for a certain variety of ships?

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Post #: 7
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 5:03:30 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Auto design has a fixed setup for each class, but will drop stuff to get it under build limits.

The AI runs a fairly logical line of escort - frigate - destroyer- cruiser - capital.

You can see the setup in the designTemplates folder.

For instance human wants for weapons:

Capital: 12 beam, 2 bombard, 9 missile
Cruiser: 8 beam, 6 missile
Destroyer: 6 beam, 3 missile
Frigate: 5 beam
Escort: 2 beam

The AI will also use them differently if automated, with bigger ships on more valuable objects.


(in reply to neofit)
Post #: 8
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 5:06:38 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: neofit

There seem to be hardcoded upgrade paths. I am leaving the maximum on auto to see what's what, and I noticed that with my current size of 230, auto design updates keep the frigates smaller (203 size FFs vs 227 size DDs), the DDs have missiles while the FFs don't, the FFs are kept at a slower speed than DDs. I only found in Empire Settings a way to change what types of ships I'd want the Advisor to propose me, like for instance 0% of Escorts, but the upgrade paths seem fixed.


Really, it's all definable in one of the game files, so if you wanted to even that could be changed.


Another thing to keep in mind is that ship size affects initial cost, continued maintenance, speed, maneuverability, and so forth.

I use a mix pretty much in line with the game's layout, but there's no set reason you can't deviate from that.
Some might like all their ships to be smaller, faster, and cheaper and have a bunch of them.
Others might want large behemoths with lots of firepower.

It really all depends on your Tactics and situation.

It's all about flexibility




< Message edited by Spacecadet -- 5/26/2014 6:07:54 PM >

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RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 6:09:41 PM   
OzoneGrif_slith


Posts: 378
Joined: 12/2/2010
Status: offline 		Escorts are ... to escort. Don't put them in fleets, it's not where they are good at.
Frigate are polyvalent, they are the base ship for mostly everything, you can fleet them or not.
Destroyers are attackers, made with powerful weapons but few defenses, they are good in strike forces.
Cruisers and Capital ships are bigger ships for fleets. I use the cruisers for Warp jammers and aera weapons, while I use capital fleet as raw force.
Carriers are standoff ships with many little fighters.

I don't know at which point the AI expect this, but from what I see it uses them mostly that way. It's quite flexible anyway. :)

< Message edited by OzoneGrif -- 5/26/2014 7:13:43 PM >

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 10
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 7:58:52 PM   
LSD

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/15/2014
Status: offline 		Like others have said, they're mostly for the AI to distinguish roles.
Personally, i completely ignore escorts. The AI does an absolutely awful job of automating them, they have no real defences, no real weapons, and they usually just get destroyed by anything they come into contact with -- pirate, creature, or otherwise. I've even had the AI send them alone to attack large pirate stations, where they're pulled in and destroyed instantly. If they're not doing that, they're usually patroling a mining station right next to my capital in groups of 5.

I use frigates to patrol my colonies. 3 frigates in a single fleet based at the colony/spaceport at the colony is enough to fend off pirates (most of the time). It's usually enough to occupy real invaders while your real fleet can get there. If you spam them a bit and let the AI take control, they'll use them in place of escorts, and they do a far better job of actually escorting things.

(in reply to OzoneGrif_slith)
Post #: 11
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 8:07:40 PM   
Spacecadet

 

Posts: 1780
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		While not optimal, Escorts can come in handy.

I set my Escorts up with Long Range Weapons, set attack values as Standoff, and Flee at 50% Shields.

They're small and fast so they have some survivability under the above conditions and though not perfect, I've seen them chase off larger ships.


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Post #: 12
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 8:16:02 PM   
Raap

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline 		I've always wondered why they didn't give smaller ships some kind of defensive/offensive bonus. An accuracy system is already in place, so it shouldn't be that difficult to make bigger ships easier to hit, and vice versa on smaller ships. Obviously a smaller ship shouldn't be able to singlehandedly destroy a bigger one, but it might be nice if they at least stood a chance of surviving for a while. An alternative might be to make bigger ships even slower, so that the speed difference became really significant.

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Post #: 13
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 11:02:57 PM   
OzoneGrif_slith


Posts: 378
Joined: 12/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, i completely ignore escorts. The AI does an absolutely awful job of automating them


Escorts gives your civilian ships enough time to escape and/or enough time for your fleet to arrive.
They are far from worthless. Just remember they are made to be destroyed.

(in reply to Raap)
Post #: 14
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/26/2014 11:21:22 PM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

quote:

Personally, i completely ignore escorts. The AI does an absolutely awful job of automating them


Escorts gives your civilian ships enough time to escape and/or enough time for your fleet to arrive.
They are far from worthless. Just remember they are made to be destroyed.


+1

Darkspire

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Post #: 15
RE: Difference between ship types - 5/27/2014 1:21:35 AM   
LSD

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/15/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

quote:

Personally, i completely ignore escorts. The AI does an absolutely awful job of automating them


Escorts gives your civilian ships enough time to escape and/or enough time for your fleet to arrive.
They are far from worthless. Just remember they are made to be destroyed.

If you prioritise shielding or hyperdrives, with either at an average level they'll always get away alive anyway.

(in reply to OzoneGrif_slith)
Post #: 16
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