Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

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Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J) - 6/2/2014 2:50:35 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

So, I caved in after a couple of months of absence. The AE addiction is strong with this one...

I have found not only an opponent but a formidable one. He has asked me to remain anonymous for now so I won�t reveal his name just yet. But he knows what he is doing and is very experienced. I will certainly be fighting for my life in 42 to avoid AV.

I�m thrilled to have not only attracted a very experienced and skilled player but I also get the chance to play my personal dream game. DBB-B with PDU OFF.

These are the agreed upon setting:

---------------------------------------
Scenario 28 with StackingLimits (DBB-B)
---------------------------------------
FOW ON
advanced Weather ON
Allied damage control ON
PDU OFF
historical first turn OFF
Dec 7 surprise ON
reliable USN torps OFF
realistic R&D ON
no unit withdrawels OFF

combat reports ON
auto sub ops OFF
TF move radius ON
plane move radius ON
facilities expand OFF
auto upgrade ships and airgroups OFF
auto air and ground replacements OFF

We both have our reservations regarding SL but since most (all?) people seems happy with it we decided to give it a go.

I wanted a really short list of HRs. I learned the hard way that HRs in many cases tend to end up more or less impossible to follow. No LRCAP for Escort is a good example. So the list of HRs is reasonably short. Three deal with the first turn only and then 4 to deal with the rest of the game.

---------------
First turn HRs
---------------
1 CV port strike on turn 1
Only existing Allied TFs can move on first turn.
Only allied units in China can move first turn.

---------
Game HRs
---------
Max altitude for all Aircraft 33k
No 4Es below 10k (all missions) except navy ones.
Max 500 CV AC per hex.
Restricted units must pay PPs to cross national borders

In addition my mystery opponent have asked if we could reduce the SR on all Ki-64 models by one. So SR4 = SR3 and so on. I immediately agreed to that since this is a PDU OFF game. I also know DBB reduced the availability of AS greatly so I felt some kind of boon was in order.

To those of you that have experience with DBB. Any general advice and thoughts concerning the difference with Stock? I will start posting maps and general thoughts in the coming days. I have to familiarize myself with DBB and all the changes from Stock. One thing is sure though...The sheep is back!

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< Message edited by JocMeister -- 6/6/2014 6:22:31 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 4:19:52 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
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Baaa...Baaa...Baaa

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Post #: 2

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 5:14:00 PM

EHansen

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
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I wonder if you will get shorn?

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Post #: 3

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 5:35:43 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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Any plans on how you will use your subs?

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The Moose

(in reply to EHansen)

Post #: 4

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 5:37:19 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EHansen

I wonder if you will get shorn?

There will be no shorning if I can help it!

(in reply to EHansen)

Post #: 5

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:00:40 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

To those of you that have experience with DBB. Any general advice and thoughts concerning the difference with Stock? I will start posting maps and general thoughts in the coming days. I have to familiarize myself with DBB and all the changes from Stock. One thing is sure though...The sheep is back!

You noted the big one, which is the difference in AV support. Along those lines are all of the different types of engineers that can do different things. Some just build/repair, some help unload and repair ships, some just help unload and other combat and everything but unload.

_____________________________

Rook749
AAR: This will End Badly @ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key= & http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4074294

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 6

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:03:30 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Any plans on how you will use your subs?

I�ve snooped around a bit and this opponent is not neglecting air ASW...so I�ll probably just park all the subs in port.

On a more serious note I will not use them in the traditional way. That only works against players not paying attention. It will also depend a lot on where I can base them. But I�ll probably take about 30% of them and attach to the fleet while the rest will primarily act as scouts and do some hunting outside Japanese LBA. I�ll just have to make sure enough is around his sealanes to force him to use a lot of assets on Air ASW.

If it turns out his hasn�t devoted enough I may get a couple of months of relatively free hunting before he can catch up on training. So to sum it up. I will use them very defensively initially.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 7

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:05:04 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749
You noted the big one, which is the difference in AV support. Along those lines are all of the different types of engineers that can do different things. Some just build/repair, some help unload and repair ships, some just help unload and other combat and everything but unload.

Thanks!

Got a list from Micheal on the different engineers with a strong recommendation to print out so I have it handy!

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 8

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:22:37 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Any plans on how you will use your subs?

I�ve snooped around a bit and this opponent is not neglecting air ASW...so I�ll probably just park all the subs in port.

On a more serious note I will not use them in the traditional way. That only works against players not paying attention. It will also depend a lot on where I can base them. But I�ll probably take about 30% of them and attach to the fleet while the rest will primarily act as scouts and do some hunting outside Japanese LBA. I�ll just have to make sure enough is around his sealanes to force him to use a lot of assets on Air ASW.

If it turns out his hasn�t devoted enough I may get a couple of months of relatively free hunting before he can catch up on training. So to sum it up. I will use them very defensively initially.

Bullwinkle and I both highly recommend using those SSTs as soon as you get them

. I haven't been able to take anything with mine, but I've enjoyed using them and they're low risk, high reward operations. Even if I fail to take a base, I've gained intel and forced my opponent to take notice/keep him honest.

What you've suggested you'll do with subs is what I would suggest you do, after looking at your previous AAR... So just keep your eye on the prize, I guess.

I think I might know who you're playing, but I'll keep my guess to myself for now. Good luck!

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 9

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:23:07 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749
You noted the big one, which is the difference in AV support. Along those lines are all of the different types of engineers that can do different things. Some just build/repair, some help unload and repair ships, some just help unload and other combat and everything but unload.

Thanks!

Got a list from Micheal on the different engineers with a strong recommendation to print out so I have it handy!

You should post that here so we can all have a reference point!

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 10

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:42:29 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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Good luck! I, too, have my own guess on your opponent.

Send the Boise to cruise between Truk and the HI early on....then off to the Aluetians and finally the west coast.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 11

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:56:01 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Bullwinkle and I both highly recommend using those SSTs as soon as you get them . I haven't been able to take anything with mine, but I've enjoyed using them and they're low risk, high reward operations. Even if I fail to take a base, I've gained intel and forced my opponent to take notice/keep him honest.

What you've suggested you'll do with subs is what I would suggest you do, after looking at your previous AAR... So just keep your eye on the prize, I guess.

I think I might know who you're playing, but I'll keep my guess to myself for now. Good luck!

Never had much luck with them but to be honest I never really tried to do more then deliver supplies. Oddly enough I could never even once get them to unload supply. Same thing with regular subs. So I�m obviously doing something wrong!

SST can only load units witch are paradrop capable right? I�m going to keep my eyes open for any opportunities this time around.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 12

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 6:58:32 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Good luck! I, too, have my own guess on your opponent.

Send the Boise to cruise between Truk and the HI early on....then off to the Aluetians and finally the west coast.

Thanks!

I might do that. Depends a little bit on how my opponent opens up. I might try to link Boise up with Houston. Those two together can be quite formidable!

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 13

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:04:48 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Any plans on how you will use your subs?

I�ve snooped around a bit and this opponent is not neglecting air ASW...so I�ll probably just park all the subs in port.

On a more serious note I will not use them in the traditional way. That only works against players not paying attention. It will also depend a lot on where I can base them. But I�ll probably take about 30% of them and attach to the fleet while the rest will primarily act as scouts and do some hunting outside Japanese LBA. I�ll just have to make sure enough is around his sealanes to force him to use a lot of assets on Air ASW.

If it turns out his hasn�t devoted enough I may get a couple of months of relatively free hunting before he can catch up on training. So to sum it up. I will use them very defensively initially.

Well, several hundred crews thank you.

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The Moose

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Post #: 14

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:06:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I think I might know who you're playing, but I'll keep my guess to myself for now. Good luck!

I can't guess now because I thought it was you.

(Sleep is for the weak!)

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The Moose

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Post #: 15

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:08:43 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

---------------------------------------
Scenario 28 Aircraft Changes
---------------------------------------
So I was glancing through the models and I noticed some things differ from stock. Is this the changes Symon did?

From what I found so far the Jack and Georges seems to have been raised a lot in their top speed while the Corsair has been slowed down a bit. Looks like MVR have been changed a lot throughout the board too. Very interesting stuff! Is there a list somewhere where all the changes are listed? Looks like I need to relearn the airwar!

Also have to learn what upgrades to what on the Allied side. Guess PDU OFF will effect Allied training in a negative way too. Have to rethink everything and find suitable roles for each model. This will be FUN!

EDIT: Wow, this will be a challenge. First thing I check is a P40B squadron that doesn�t upgrade until the P40N5 in July 43! This will be a nightmare to keep track of!

Question: Seem like most of the Squads within the Groups upgrade to different models. I wonder if its best to keep the Groups united to get some variety or divide them up according to model?

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 6/2/2014 8:19:53 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:12:06 PM

JocMeister

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Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Its not a massive secret or anything. I just think my opponent wants to inform his other PBEM opponent personally rather then to let him see here that he picked up another game.

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Post #: 17

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:19:31 PM

EHansen

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline

Try this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3460200

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Post #: 18

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:20:18 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EHansen

Try this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3460200

Great stuff! Thanks!

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Post #: 19

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:24:19 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

---------------------------------------
Scenario 28 Aircraft Changes
---------------------------------------
So I was glancing through the models and I noticed some things differ from stock. Is this the changes Symon did?

From what I found so far the Jack and Georges seems to have been raised a lot in their top speed while the Corsair has been slowed down a bit. Looks like MVR have been changed a lot throughout the board too.

Very interesting stuff! Is there a list somewhere where all the changes are listed? Looks like I need to relearn the airwar!

Also have to learn what upgrades to what on the Allied side. Guess PDU OFF will effect Allied training in a negative way too. Have to rethink everything and find suitable roles for each model. This will be FUN!

EDIT: Wow, this will be a challenge. First thing I check is a P40B squadron that doesn�t upgrade until the P40N5 in July 43! This will be a nightmare to keep track of!

Yes, with PDU Off it will be far different from my ongoing game with the same mod. I am looking forward to the AAR.

What I can tell you is the modifications to the air was seems to allow the P-39D and P-40B/E to operate with some success against the Japanese (even vsKB) into at least June of 42. But you need to make sure you have 60 Exp Pilots with 70 Air.

I don't know that the PDU Off will really hurt your training but you need to make sure you keep very good tracks on the total number of air frames you need of each type for the next three months so you don't upgrade your to losing the use of airframes. Now, I spend hours moving my pilots around to train them and it has paid off for me. I suspect that with PDU Off you will need to move your pilots even more as you need those best pilots into the squadrons that fly the "current" fighter as you just can't upgrade the fighter group they are in.

_____________________________

Rook749
AAR: This will End Badly @ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key= & http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4074294

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Post #: 20

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:31:45 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Its not a massive secret or anything. I just think my opponent wants to inform his other PBEM opponent personally rather then to let him see here that he picked up another game.

Yeah, that can be a little like the dating world where one side finds out the other side WASN'T exclusive. They never had "that talk." Then there's tests, and doctors . . .

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Post #: 21

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:47:19 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749

Yes, with PDU Off it will be far different from my ongoing game with the same mod. I am looking forward to the AAR.

What I can tell you is the modifications to the air was seems to allow the P-39D and P-40B/E to operate with some success against the Japanese (even vsKB) into at least June of 42. But you need to make sure you have 60 Exp Pilots with 70 Air.

I don't know that the PDU Off will really hurt your training but you need to make sure you keep very good tracks on the total number of air frames you need of each type for the next three months so you don't upgrade your to losing the use of airframes. Now, I spend hours moving my pilots around to train them and it has paid off for me. I suspect that with PDU Off you will need to move your pilots even more as you need those best pilots into the squadrons that fly the "current" fighter as you just can't upgrade the fighter group they are in.

Now that is a very good point. And you can�t downgrade squadrons once upgraded right? So if I upgrade a squadron on the WC to P40Es and 2 months later find out I need those on the frontline I can�t just downgrade them to P26 to free up the P40Es.

I micromanaged my pilot training in my other two games. Its not fun but you have to do it! But it will be a lot more hassle with PDU OFF.

I hope the Allies can be a bit more competitive in the air with PDU OFF and especially no "2nd best MVR band". In my last game once the Tojos arrived the P40 became utterly useless and stayed so for the rest of the war. Even the later models. That HR ruined the air war for both sides.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 22

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:47:49 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Yeah, that can be a little like the dating world where one side finds out the other side WASN'T exclusive. They never had "that talk." Then there's tests, and doctors . . .

Exactly!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 23

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 7:52:36 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

And you can�t downgrade squadrons once upgraded right? So if I upgrade a squadron on the WC to P40Es and 2 months later find out I need those on the frontline I can�t just downgrade them to P26 to free up the P40Es.

Correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I hope the Allies can be a bit more competitive in the air with PDU OFF and especially no "2nd best MVR band". In my last game once the Tojos arrived the P40 became utterly useless and stayed so for the rest of the war. Even the later models. That HR ruined the air war for both sides.

I agree that one HR all by itself makes the P-40 useless once the Tojo is in play and as its such a large chunk of your air force IMHO it really destroys the game. Granted the P-40/P-39 still have major issues without that HR when the Tojo arrives but at least they can do something.

_____________________________

Rook749
AAR: This will End Badly @ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key= & http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4074294

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Post #: 24

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 8:16:01 PM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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The more I look into this the more confusing it gets...

Looking at the 18th FG at PH for example:
19th FS = Upgrades to "N5" in 7/43
44th FS = "K" in 9/42
6th FS = Havoc (NF) in 8/42
73rd FS = P47D2 in 7/43
78th FS = "K" in 9/42

Since all of them are starting with P40Bs they will basically be unfit for frontline duty until the 44th and 78th upgrades in 9/42. This will change a lot for me and how I usually play. I think I will have to go through each FS on the map and see what upgrades to what and when. For example I usually use parts of the 18th to beef up defenses in SOPAC. Can�t do that now as they won�t have any planes to fly!

Priority will be to find what FS upgrades to P40Es and P39s and get them to where I need them. Having squadrons on the frontline flying P40Bs and upgrades to P47s won�t be of any use for me. This can turn out to be quite complicated but I need to get on top of right away!

Fun though but I guess this will invade my sleep!

EDIT: Anyone knows if someone made a spreadsheet or anything on all the upgrades by squadron? Or if its in Tracker? That would help!

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 6/2/2014 9:18:10 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 8:38:06 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Yeahbut, a P-40B can still shoot down a Nate or a Claude.

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Post #: 26

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/2/2014 9:30:30 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Yeahbut, a P-40B can still shoot down a Nate or a Claude.

But it has no pool to draw from, nor can he create a pool by changing frame types of other P40B squads to fill the pool.

The squad that has to wait for the P40N5 will be out of P40B frames long before the N5 arrives if he uses it in combat.

Basically it means he can fight with P40Bs only until the squads become depleted and then will only be useful for training until their upgrade frame type starts arriving.

Also means he can't prioritize upgrading the AVG to P40Es to send the H81A3s into the Chinese pool.

Lots and lots of drawbacks to PDU off. This is gonna be really interesting.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 6/2/2014 10:32:37 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/3/2014 1:23:13 AM

DOCUP

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will be watching.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 28

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/3/2014 4:36:55 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
But it has no pool to draw from, nor can he create a pool by changing frame types of other P40B squads to fill the pool.

The squad that has to wait for the P40N5 will be out of P40B frames long before the N5 arrives if he uses it in combat.

Basically it means he can fight with P40Bs only until the squads become depleted and then will only be useful for training until their upgrade frame type starts arriving.

Also means he can't prioritize upgrading the AVG to P40Es to send the H81A3s into the Chinese pool.

Lots and lots of drawbacks to PDU off. This is gonna be really interesting.

Exactly. Hadn�t realized this before I started looking at the FS. The only way to "free up" P40Bs for example is to upgrade them. But since only P40Es and P39s will be available I have to find the squads with P40Bs that upgrades to either P39s or P40Es. If there is any...

Adds a whole new layer of complexity. This will severely limit me early on I think. It will be a little easier on the Jap side since they will have number around at least.

EDIT: Aaah, some mistakes on me regarding the 18th FG thank god. They actually ALL upgrade to the "E" before the upgrades I listed takes place...

And even more happy news. This info is available in tracker!

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 6/3/2014 6:46:31 AM >

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 29

RE: Return of the Sheep! - 6/3/2014 5:26:37 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Sometimes I�m a little bit more in love with the tracker guys then usual...

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 30

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