John 3rd
Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
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Here was the beginning thoughts of the Treaty Mod:
Spoke with Michael about an idea I had earlier this week to create a new Grand Campaign based on a slightly different set of results with the Washington and London Naval Treaties. For those who don't know, this is a favored area of mine as my Master Thesis in History was on the US Fleet during the Treaty Years of 1921-1936.
The idea that I am stewing on is that Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Conference for a full year. The Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu Debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. New arguements:
1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or a pair of the Amagi Class BCs. If they win then the Americans and British get their corresponding ships as well.
2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked with all sorts of possibilities:
a. Allow two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's)
b. Allow for two BC conversions but add further treaty tonnage to allow for one more CV to be built by both Japan and USA.
c. The original view was that 10,000T and smaller CVs wouldn't count against treaty tonnage. Perhaps that gets a change?
d. Submarines could be another topic examined for changes in the treaty.
Moving on to the London Conference (1930) and the subject of Cruisers could also provide furtile ground for a 'what if' set of changes:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). Would the Naval Powers allow for this to keep the peace for five more years?
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser--CVs. Perhaps 1-2 are allowed in the interests of allowing speculation? This is the CLV Charlotte in Reluctant Admiral.
The COOL thing about this Mod is that is would be balanced. If Japan gets Tosa then USA adds1-2 new BBs that were originally scrapped. If Japan gets two of the Amagi BCs then USA gets...
American Additions:
CV Lexington
CV Saratoga
CVL King's Mountain
Built off the lessons learned from the failed real life Ranger. This CVL is a proto-Yorktown Class of 13,000T carrying 54 planes (18 F4F, 18 SBD, and 18 TBD) and cruiser speed.
CLV-1 Charlotte
CLV-2 Jacksonville
These hybrids carry 3x3 6", 8x1 5", have St Louis Class Armor, and 24 Planes (12 F4F and 12 SBD). Will be allowed to convert into Independence Class CVLs.
Lexington-Class BCs
CC-1 Ranger
CC-2 Constellation
Northhampton-Class
CA Burlington
CA Rome
St Louis-Class
CL Anchorage
CL Dallas
Will add 4 more Somer's-Class DDs as well as an equal number of Benham-Class. Could use some additional names for these DDs. Want to use Walker and Mahan for two of them. Six are open for naming...
Japanese Additions:
CVs
Akagi (Sister Ships)
Amagi
CVL
Ryukaku (Single deck hangar CVL with Air Complement of 27 planes) the design is successful and becomes the proto-Hiryu Class and all subsequent Japanese CVLs. Ryujo is built as is and becomes a failed design. Ryukaku succeeds as a more 'realistic' CVL for tonnage left.
CVE (Experimental)
Hosho (Sister Ships)
Ibuki
BC
Ishitaka Amagi-Class BC.
CLV (Hybrid Cruiser Carriers)
______________ (Need Names reflecting their hybrid nature. SUGGESTIONS?)
______________
Specs:
15,000 T, 3x3 6" Guns, 6x1 5" Secondary, Cruiser Speed, reasonable armor (along Mogami Class CL), designed for 54 planes but carries 42 at this point in time (21 Zero and 21 Kate OR 24 Zero and 18 Kate OR 27 Zero and 15 Kate). The ships may be converted into Hiryu-Class CVs starting in summer 1942. Figure a 6-12 month conversion. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Japanese Cruisers
CAs
OK. We are gonna play the 'tonnage' game for Japanese CAs. In this Mod the following happens to the 'traditional' Japanese CAs and the year they were completed:
1. MYOKO: Myoko (29), Nachi (28), Haguro (29), Ashigara (29), Seiki (29), Chishima(30), Miyako (30), and Yoshino (30) . They are 10,000 T: 80,000 T
2. TAKAO: Takao (32), Atago (32), Maya (32), and Chokai (32). They are 9,850 T: 39,400 T
Taking Myoko and Nachi equals 119,400 T leaving (with a Treaty Tonnage of 122,500). The Japanese expand the Myoko's into a class of eight ships. New names are above in Italics/Bolded.
As to Third and Fourth Circle Plans I would have two CAs authorized per plan. These would not be Tone's but reflect Japan's shift towards the triple turret. The Niitaka-Class CA mounts 4x3 8" guns. Displacement would surge to about 13,000 T. They are a perfect example of 'using a few to conquer many.' There are designs for this class over in Ship Bucket and we planned to use them in the Perfect War Mod. The first pair would be Tone and Chikuma (available at war's start) followed by two more pairs from the plans (due in 1942 and 1944)...
Total PRE-WAR Build for CAs: 14 with 4 building.
CLs
Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma and Tama are converted to Fast Mine-Layers.
Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso become Training Cruisers and, thus, no need to build the Katori Class.
NAGARA: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu, and Abukuma remain classified as CLs rated at 5,170 T: 31,020 T.
SENDAI: Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, and Minase rated at 5,195 T: 20,780 T
FURUTAKA: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, and Kinugasa 7,500 T: 30,000 T.
MOGAMI: Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, and Kumano 8,500 T: 34,000 T.
Total tonnage is 115,800. Authorized Tonnage is 112,000. So Japan is slightly over, however, she is slightly under for CAs so we'll call this good.
In production, starting with 3rd and 4th Circle is a reduced size-Mogami Class CL of 3x3 6", good Torps, and about 8,000 T.
Total PRE-WAR CLs: 18 with 8 Building.
The Total Cruiser tonnage is 235,200 allowed by Treaty with 234,500 ACTUAL when Treaty is abandoned.
Empire Additions:
Hawkins Class CLV:
HMAS Melbourne
HMS Vindictive
The British are authorized to build two BC by the Washington Conference Treaty. Figure those would go to the Atlantic for the war BUT could Britain TRANSFER something to reinforce Force Z with another Capital Ship? If so, then which?
Would add a few Dds to provide some form of screening ships...
< Message edited by John 3rd -- 6/20/2014 3:15:14 AM >
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