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Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/24/2014 2:38:52 PM

Champagne

Posts: 356
Joined: 9/28/2004
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I hope that this is the appropriate sub-forum in which to post this thread. If not, my apologies.

I'm trying my first Campaign Game. I chose to play the Axis vs. the AI in the Alt VC 260 scenario. I am using the Reduced Blizzard Effects.

Advice is needed. I printed out the full manual and read it front to back more than once in most places. I know the fundamentals about Command and Control, Support Units and Leadership. I know how to transfer support units and dismiss leaders.

It's currently 1 January 1942, and human Axis player (me) holds 230 Victory Points. The Axis hold Leningrad, Vyshny Volochek, Kalinin, Rzhev, Vyazma, Kaluga, Tula, Orel, Kursk, Belgorod, Kharkov, Voroshilov, and Rostov.

The fight for Crimea is raging. The Russians are in no immediate danger of losing their eight-hex Sevastopol stronghold, and, have a solid defense line on the western most Crimean bottleneck that protects the Kerch Straits.

Some other statistics at this point in the game:

Axis VPs = 230; Ready Manpower Germany = 2,900,000 -- Russia = 5,962,373; Ready AFVs Germany = 2358 -- Russia = 3245 -- Ready Aircraft Germany = 3211 -- Russia = 8876.

I am uncertain about a number of game issues. I'd appreciate guidance.

A fundamental issue raised by these stats: Am I doing something wrong with my air strategy? The Russians seem to have an enormously large number of ready aircraft. I bombed airfields on Turn 1, but, I have not spent much energy doing this on subsequent turns.

First, I've been bombing the Sevastopol Port facilities. Does this have the potential to drastically affect the Russian supply? I'm not sure how much damage is done, because I'm not sure how to read the battle results. The "F11" result doesn't provide precise data on battle damage to the Port. The Port seems to have a value of "15", and my bombing has reached a level of "9", but, I'm not sure what that means.

Second, how beneficial is it to bomb Russian Manpower, Rail and other such facilities?

Third, moving to ground combat: how beneficial is the building of Fortified Zones to help the Axis defense line during the brutal Winter? I know that Fort Levels are very beneficial, but, I'm talking about Fortified Zones. They seem beneficial, but, I'm not sure that experienced players use them very much to defend the Axis winter line. A current AAR game shows the Axis player building no Fortified Zones at all to bolster his winter defense line.

Fourth, during the Brutal Winter, should the Axis player just run away or defend his fortified Axis winter line? If he runs away, the Axis player will obviously lose a great deal of Victory Points and ground.

Fifth, In my quest to reduce the Partisan threat as much as possible, I am using all of the Security units and most of the Axis Minor Allies to garrison Russian rear-area cities. I've got at least 100 percent Occupation Value for every rear area city. Is this a wise strategy? I've seen a recent AAR where the Axis player basically ignores the garrison duties and uses these units elsewhere.

Thanks for the help.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

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Post #: 1

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/24/2014 2:51:48 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

I hope that this is the appropriate sub-forum in which to post this thread. If not, my apologies.

I'm trying my first Campaign Game. I chose to play the Axis vs. the AI in the Alt VC 260 scenario. I am using the Reduced Blizzard Effects.

Advice is needed. I printed out the full manual and read it front to back more than once in most places. I know the fundamentals about Command and Control, Support Units and Leadership. I know how to transfer support units and dismiss leaders.

It's currently 1 January 1942, and human Axis player (me) holds 230 Victory Points. The Axis hold Leningrad, Vyshny Volochek, Kalinin, Rzhev, Vyazma, Kaluga, Tula, Orel, Kursk, Belgorod, Kharkov, Voroshilov, and Rostov.

The fight for Crimea is raging. The Russians are in no immediate danger of losing their eight-hex Sevastopol stronghold, and, have a solid defense line on the western most Crimean bottleneck that protects the Kerch Straits.

Some other statistics at this point in the game:

Axis VPs = 230; Ready Manpower Germany = 2,900,000 -- Russia = 5,962,373; Ready AFVs Germany = 2358 -- Russia = 3245 -- Ready Aircraft Germany = 3211 -- Russia = 8876.

I am uncertain about a number of game issues. I'd appreciate guidance.

A fundamental issue raised by these stats: Am I doing something wrong with my air strategy? The Russians seem to have an enormously large number of ready aircraft. I bombed airfields on Turn 1, but, I have not spent much energy doing this on subsequent turns.

First, I've been bombing the Sevastopol Port facilities. Does this have the potential to drastically affect the Russian supply? I'm not sure how much damage is done, because I'm not sure how to read the battle results. The "F11" result doesn't provide precise data on battle damage to the Port. The Port seems to have a value of "15", and my bombing has reached a level of "9", but, I'm not sure what that means.

Second, how beneficial is it to bomb Russian Manpower, Rail and other such facilities?

Third, moving to ground combat: how beneficial is the building of Fortified Zones to help the Axis defense line during the brutal Winter? I know that Fort Levels are very beneficial, but, I'm talking about Fortified Zones. They seem beneficial, but, I'm not sure that experienced players use them very much to defend the Axis winter line. A current AAR game shows the Axis player building no Fortified Zones at all to bolster his winter defense line.

Fourth, during the Brutal Winter, should the Axis player just run away or defend his fortified Axis winter line? If he runs away, the Axis player will obviously lose a great deal of Victory Points and ground.

Fifth, In my quest to reduce the Partisan threat as much as possible, I am using all of the Security units and most of the Axis Minor Allies to garrison Russian rear-area cities. I've got at least 100 percent Occupation Value for every rear area city. Is this a wise strategy? I've seen a recent AAR where the Axis player basically ignores the garrison duties and uses these units elsewhere.

Thanks for the help.

Plenty of questions and as a general help or guideline, here's Governato's collection of threads in a PDF.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56215959/GWITE.bestof.V3.pdf

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to Champagne)

Post #: 2

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/24/2014 3:21:53 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
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Be careful, that governato stuff is mostly out of date

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Post #: 3

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/24/2014 4:48:09 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne

A fundamental issue raised by these stats: Am I doing something wrong with my air strategy? The Russians seem to have an enormously large number of ready aircraft. I bombed airfields on Turn 1, but, I have not spent much energy doing this on subsequent turns.

First up, as you have done, take a look at some current AARs. Not only helps with strategy and tactics but most include a lot of data from the games - so you can get a feel for what seems usual and so on

I'd say the air numbers sound fine, the Soviets get a lot of airframes but its not till the Yak-3s (& similar) appear do you start to face quality as well as quantity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
First, I've been bombing the Sevastopol Port facilities. Does this have the potential to drastically affect the Russian supply? I'm not sure how much damage is done, because I'm not sure how to read the battle results. The "F11" result doesn't provide precise data on battle damage to the Port. The Port seems to have a value of "15", and my bombing has reached a level of "9", but, I'm not sure what that means.

Port level does affect supply flow, whether its worth it or not is a different issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
Second, how beneficial is it to bomb Russian Manpower, Rail and other such facilities?

Wouldn't bother, there was a good reason why, apart from some Soviet raids on Rumania, neither side used their airforce except in support of ground operations. The Germans did bomb Soviet cities, but I don't think it was a sustained attack on Soviet production

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
Third, moving to ground combat: how beneficial is the building of Fortified Zones to help the Axis defense line during the brutal Winter? I know that Fort Levels are very beneficial, but, I'm talking about Fortified Zones. They seem beneficial, but, I'm not sure that experienced players use them very much to defend the Axis winter line. A current AAR game shows the Axis player building no Fortified Zones at all to bolster his winter defense line.

Good idea for a few, but don't over do it. Set them up in a pattern xooxoo (ie 2 hexes apart) to maximise value. Probably more use once you know (late 42) that you can't defeat the Soviets and thus plan for a defensive strategy for the rest of the war. My opponent, SigUp has built a number, I guess in part with an eye to the longer term, so it can be effective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
Fourth, during the Brutal Winter, should the Axis player just run away or defend his fortified Axis winter line? If he runs away, the Axis player will obviously lose a great deal of Victory Points and ground.

Nah, fight. Pull back a bit in December, play it by ear in Jan, maybe consider a counterattack in March. In truth it depends too much on relative army strength, again there is quite a spread of experience in the current AARs, but with the mild blizzard rule, you don't need to do the old fashioned run off to Poland technique

quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
Fifth, In my quest to reduce the Partisan threat as much as possible, I am using all of the Security units and most of the Axis Minor Allies to garrison Russian rear-area cities. I've got at least 100 percent Occupation Value for every rear area city. Is this a wise strategy? I've seen a recent AAR where the Axis player basically ignores the garrison duties and uses these units elsewhere.

Thanks for the help.

sounds sensible but maybe too much? If you ignore the partisans, they will cut your rail lines and you can end up with major supply problems even if just for a turn. So you need some control, but I'd say you don't need complete supression. In a PBEM, depends a bit on how much effort your opponent puts into supplying the partisan war.

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Post #: 4

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/24/2014 5:51:17 PM

Champagne

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Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

Thanks for the input.

I am using the latest version of the game with all Default settings, and on Normal level of difficulty.

The Russian Winter AI Offensive seems overwhelming, and it's only New Year's Day, 1942. I find that I don't have quite enough infantry to defend the entire front line, which I suppose is quite normal.

My panzer formations were able to rest during Mud, but, when Blizzard brought the all out Russian Winter Offensive, I am forced to use my panzer formations to push back Russian breakthroughs.

I suppose this is also normal?

I wonder what my prospects are for ending the game in 1942 with 260 VPs? Thoughts?

Thanks for the link, Col. Klink. That rhymes, of course. I have read this data before, and will study it again. I can't tell which parts are out of date. I suppose that the portions concerning Blizzard are out of date, if one uses Reduced Blizzard.

< Message edited by Champagne -- 6/24/2014 7:06:01 PM >

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 6:05:23 AM

terje439

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Joined: 3/28/2004
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About the fortified zones - only use them to build a fort-line. When the enemy gets close to them, disband them as they are stuck in their location, they will be lost in battle, and with them some manpower and some guns.

What you want to do, is to add them so that you build up your fort level to 3. When the USSR starts pushing, move regular units into the hex, and disband the fortified zones.

As to your overall situation, it sounds like your line is somewhat long, do you have alot of bulges in the front? I tend to move my panzers back into towns in the west for the winter to make sure they do not bleed morale.

Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

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Post #: 6

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 3:59:44 PM

Champagne

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Joined: 9/28/2004
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Thanks very much for the great tips about using FZs to build up Fort Levels, and resting the Panzers during the first winter.

There is one large bulge in the line that stretches from the North East boundary of the Finnish No Attack Line on Lake Onega to the Svir River mouth on Lake Ladoga. The bulge line begins again on the Volkov River mouth and traces down to Novgorod, around Lake Ilmen and then directly east to Vyshny Volocheck. I can't abandon that bulge without giving up Torzhok and Kalinin.

There's a smaller bulge in the eastern-most part of the Don Bend that could be abandoned to make a shorter line on the Mius River.

I may not be able to win this game I'm currently playing. I can't hold the line against the Soviet winter offensive without using the panzer forces. I probably needed to build up more FLs along the entire line, instead of just portions.

I'm betting that most experienced players would have a line of FL 3 hexes on a defensible line ready to meet the Soviet Winter Offensive.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 4:28:58 PM

Champagne

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Joined: 9/28/2004
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e7fe33d73afaf9681869eeda8fc3bd94.png

I'm obviously struggling here to post a screenshot.

< Message edited by Champagne -- 6/25/2014 5:29:51 PM >

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 8

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 4:30:39 PM

Champagne

Posts: 356
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline

http://gyazo.com/ee11e0d73e6d45e033c8a6f39e6812e5

This link to the screenshot works, but, I was trying to post the screenshot directly.

< Message edited by Champagne -- 6/25/2014 5:31:33 PM >

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 9

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 4:33:28 PM

Champagne

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http://gyazo.com/983148eabcff90052ca25bcedd21881c

Front between Voronezh and Kharkov.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 10

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 4:35:05 PM

Champagne

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Joined: 9/28/2004
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http://gyazo.com/33ade801b5198c557734e035fc675b88

Front from Kharkov to Rostov.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 11

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 4:38:05 PM

Champagne

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Joined: 9/28/2004
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What are my prospects for reaching 260 VPs ? The date is
15 January 1942, and I currently have 230 VPs.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 12

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/25/2014 10:18:24 PM

terje439

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Joined: 3/28/2004
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Geographically you are fine, how well you are really doing depends upon a few things more;

1. Losses taken
2. OOB size
3. State of your units after the blizzard.

A few things that might work against you is that you need to use your panzers now. That means that when the Blizzard is gone, you will not be able to counterattack in normal winter since your panzers will be rather depleted and hence have very reduced capabilities.
And the losses of all those fortifed zones (you really should disband a lot of those judging by your screenshots) will probably see you short of alot of guns and possibly even manpower.

If you are able to start pushing again, you might be able to pull off a win, but I think you will have an intersting -42 nontheless :)

Good luck!

Terje

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"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

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Post #: 13

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 4:10:03 AM

Champagne

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I'm probably not skilled in the use of Fortified Zones. "More is better" is not the case.

I now see that one great use of them is to establish rearward defense lines early and allow them to build up Fortress Levels.

I'm not sure how to use them in front line defense, now that it seems that using them will cause heavy losses when they lose the battle.

I wonder just how much do they add to the front line defense capability of a hex, when one or two other combat units are also in the hex.

I'll do further research on this forum.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

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Post #: 14

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 4:33:28 AM

Champagne

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This is still good advice, I think.

Thanks to "lastdingo"

Fortified zones:
+ build some basic fort strength before you have a real combat formation in position
+ add some manpower to an otherwise too small occupation formation in a city or urban area
+ keep fortifications up even if combat formations have temporarily vacated the location

Their value in combat is small, though. I do usually disband them before the opponent can attack them.

Also, an old post by PDH informed me that Fortified Zones can be set to have low TOE levels so that they use less men and guns. This is probably still good advice.

_____________________________

Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 15

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 5:18:32 AM

terje439

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Yup, 50% TOE is what I use, but I never use them on the front line.

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"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

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Post #: 16

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 9:53:02 AM

gradenko2k

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They're basically there to enable the higher fort levels, and to make sure the fort levels don't decay in the absence of a combat unit, and to maybe build a little fort level themselves if you plant them far back in advance, but yes, disband them before they get directly attacked and don't worry about keeping them at full TOE, since you get the "enables high fort level" and "fort levels don't decay" effects regardless of how many men are actually in the unit.

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Post #: 17

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 2:40:59 PM

Champagne

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Great advice on FZs.

This aspect of the game is the same under the latest version, it seems.

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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

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Post #: 18

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 2:49:57 PM

morvael

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But will change in the next

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Post #: 19

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 2:52:58 PM

Numdydar

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Any eta on the next patch? Wanting to start a new game using it

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RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/26/2014 5:22:48 PM

Champagne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

But will change in the next

The FZs are a good focus point for revision. The current optimal use of this game feature may be ahistorical.

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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

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RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/27/2014 1:42:13 AM

Schattensand

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You have a lot of positions in the south, where you hold on to FZ and where even the AI is going to cut your units of. You have to abandon a fortified line that has been broken already. In the flat land of the south you have to trade space for time. A HI would make short wood out of your HGS till March 42. In the North with the wood and hill hexes you may be able to fortify and defend but in the south never. Keep in mind that a FZ works as well in all neighboring hexes.
Your chances. 3 mio Germans against 6 mio Sowjet playing AI on normal at Jan 42 is not promising. The game is so complex that you can play it hundreds of hours finding still mistakes in your gameplay.
The game is designed that if your destroy 4.5 Mio Sowjet by end of 41 by keeping your own forces by 3.5 mio. you will win the war in 42 even playing for 290 VP. The historical losses inflicted on the SA by the Wehrmacht were 3.5 mio and that was not enough. Compare your kills and losses with that numbers and you see what chances you have.

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Post #: 22

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/27/2014 2:16:07 AM

Champagne

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Good points, Schattensand.

I'm going to Disband some FZs and give up some ground in the South.

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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 23

RE: Advice welcome. Noob vs. AI. - 6/28/2014 2:30:02 PM

Champagne

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The old Axis tactic of using a string of FZs to protect RR supply lines from Partisans was eliminated by version 1.05.28

Partisans may now conduct attacks adjacent to enemy combat units.

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Only the dead have seen the end of War.

-- Plato

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Post #: 24