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RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/6/2014 9:49:25 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		Had a good read of Sheehan's "Bright Shining Lie", tempered by Halberstam, Bao Ninh, Moore/Galloway, David Hackworth, Michael Herr, & Bernard Fall.

IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 7/6/2014 11:05:17 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/7/2014 3:15:43 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.


I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of excellent autobiographies out there that minimize or mitigate the social / political context of the war(s) in which they are written. In reading the History of the United States Navy in the Second World War (Morrison), I've not sensed any political overreach. Same with the sound footing of Breakout and Pursuit (official US Army history of the Second World War in Europe, post July 1944) and the USMC Official histories. The latter does a superb job in explaining EXACTLY what was happening on the field in excruciating detail and lets the reader know what was really happening.

For one-volume operational or strategic overviews, I understand why the political arena needs some discussion. But while it's OK in measured quantity for context, the Vietnam War books tend to focus on this predominantly. Moreso, in my opinion, than most other conflicts. How many other books, for example, really deal with the fighting on the ground and in the air post Tet? I've not seen many that can divorce the good account of the American soldier 1968-1972 against the VC and NVA from the political machinations of the home front during this tumultuous period.

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Post #: 32
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/7/2014 4:57:47 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
IMO it's not possible to separate military history from its social / political context. You might be able to find 'operational' mil-hist, but that's not gonna tell you anything about what actually happened.


I couldn't disagree more. There are plenty of excellent autobiographies out there that minimize or mitigate the social / political context of the war(s) in which they are written. In reading the History of the United States Navy in the Second World War (Morrison), I've not sensed any political overreach. Same with the sound footing of Breakout and Pursuit (official US Army history of the Second World War in Europe, post July 1944) and the USMC Official histories. The latter does a superb job in explaining EXACTLY what was happening on the field in excruciating detail and lets the reader know what was really happening.

For one-volume operational or strategic overviews, I understand why the political arena needs some discussion. But while it's OK in measured quantity for context, the Vietnam War books tend to focus on this predominantly. Moreso, in my opinion, than most other conflicts. How many other books, for example, really deal with the fighting on the ground and in the air post Tet? I've not seen many that can divorce the good account of the American soldier 1968-1972 against the VC and NVA from the political machinations of the home front during this tumultuous period.


Well CB, the original post was about Atkinson, so I can use him as an example. To me the absolute "best" part of the third book was his recount and analysis of the Yalta conference. You can describe campaigns and battles with little political analysis (although very few in my view) but not a war. The problem with Vietnam is that there were really very few set piece battles or distinctive campaigns to define the war with. The war, and global political and social situation were so intertwined that it would be impossible to separate them. The battle of Ap Bac in 1963 is a prime example. Without an understanding of the underlying political ramifications this small but crucial battle really cannot be seen in context. To me any attempt to separate the two would be like crossing the Rocky Mountains with your car windows covered in newspaper. You certainly would know where you started and assuming you did not drive over a cliff, know where you arrived at but you really would not have an understanding of how you got there...


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Post #: 33
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/7/2014 7:18:42 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Politics is always a part of war, c.f Clausewitz. But the history of the Vietnam conflict has an imperitive that includes the decisions made in DC. Several works are much like Atkinson’s in that they put the military operations into the National political perspective.

But they are not relevant to the socialist/’progressive’/self-absorbed/self-appointed propaganda, from "students", from New England Universities, who ran amok on May Day.

Sorry, but they have been trying to resurrect their lack of honor or integrity ever since. Some few people believe it, because those people are the ones whose books get published and who get on the nightly news as “experts”. but their apologia is getting very thin.

How do I know this? I served and then worked for several years, in that exact time frame, as an analyst for Aeling Corp. Some of you will know the Agency that was a front for.

There are good books for the period, without the progressive nonsense. I think I referenced Harry Summers.


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Post #: 34
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/8/2014 2:07:33 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Please refrain from the political soap boxing. Some books may have a perspective you don't agree with. Some may be factually wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Bill

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Post #: 35
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/8/2014 3:21:57 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		Thank you Mr. Olson...as to my follow-up re "Pacific Payback"....anybody here read it?? If not that kinda answers my question.

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Post #: 36
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/8/2014 5:26:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Politics is always a part of war, c.f Clausewitz. But the history of the Vietnam conflict has an imperitive that includes the decisions made in DC. Several works are much like Atkinson’s in that they put the military operations into the National political perspective.

But they are not relevant to the socialist/’progressive’/self-absorbed/self-appointed propaganda, from "students", from New England Universities, who ran amok on May Day.

Sorry, but they have been trying to resurrect their lack of honor or integrity ever since. Some few people believe it, because those people are the ones whose books get published and who get on the nightly news as “experts”. but their apologia is getting very thin.

How do I know this? I served and then worked for several years, in that exact time frame, as an analyst for Aeling Corp. Some of you will know the Agency that was a front for.

There are good books for the period, without the progressive nonsense. I think I referenced Harry Summers.



"Hanoi's War" is making for interesting reading, which is saying something given it focuses on the politics and leaders making decisions vs. military actions.

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Post #: 37
RE: Books/Atkinson - 7/8/2014 5:31:17 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Please refrain from the political soap boxing. Some books may have a perspective you don't agree with. Some may be factually wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Bill

You are correct. Sorry Bill.

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Post #: 38
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/26/2014 12:44:43 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I just finished reading the Atkinson trilogy. Very worthwhile I think. He didn't withhold criticism on anyone nor praise. They were all human. Atkinson is a little over the top at times when trying to be profound, but he often is profound. I found his excessive use of "sanguinary" very annoying. His use of "sanguine" seemed appropriate in each case, though. Strange how the meanings are so different and yet connected.

Now what am I supposed to do? I bought copies of "The House of the Seven Gables" and "Les Miserables" just in case I get jury duty or something. Isn't there something better out there? I've read "The History of Gorn" more times than I wish to admit. Someone help me.

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Post #: 39
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/26/2014 11:55:46 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		If you have not read them already:

These are two books I highly recommend:

"Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.
(About 800 pages of pure joy for anyone interested in the Pacific air war.)
Check out the reader reviews on Amazon.

Also,
"Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric Bergerud.



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Post #: 40
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/26/2014 5:05:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Both of those are very good Trugrit. Highly recommended.

Since we're dealing with some newer arrivals on the forums, "Shattered Sword" is a widely-acclaimed "must read" for an understanding of IJN carrier warfare and-in particular-the battle of Midway.

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Post #: 41
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/26/2014 5:27:52 PM   
comte


Posts: 2358
Joined: 2/4/2009
From: Be'eri, Hadarom, Israel
Status: offline 		The Best book on the Vietnam War I have ever read was:

The Rise and Fall of an American Army: U.S. Ground Forces, Vietnam, 1965-1973 by Shelby L. Stanton

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Post #: 42
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/27/2014 4:33:37 PM   
krishub1492


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/28/2002
From:
Status: offline 		Atkinson's books were tremendous in providing a well-rounded history of the US Army in the MTO and ETO. However, for a pure operational history of the Western European campaign, "Eisenhower's Lieutentants" is the best one-volume analysis. It would be a great book to read while playing WITW.

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Post #: 43
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/30/2014 10:49:32 PM   
Ormbane


Posts: 80
Joined: 5/17/2013
Status: offline 		I've been working my way through the first volume of this trilogy and enjoying it very much. I appreciate the recommendation.

One quote that caught my attention was: "the average solider reached his peak effectiveness in the first 90 days of combat and was so worn out after 180 days that he was rendered useless and unable to return to military.." I read elsewhere that if a soldier survived the first 30 days at the front he was very likely to survive the war. Still elsewhere I read the criticism that the US did not do a very good job or rotating and resting units but simply threw replacements into frontline troops in a wasteful manner. Does anybody have any insight into what the actual practice was for the US in WW2?

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Post #: 44
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/30/2014 11:37:13 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormbane

I've been working my way through the first volume of this trilogy and enjoying it very much. I appreciate the recommendation.

One quote that caught my attention was: "the average solider reached his peak effectiveness in the first 90 days of combat and was so worn out after 180 days that he was rendered useless and unable to return to military.." I read elsewhere that if a soldier survived the first 30 days at the front he was very likely to survive the war. Still elsewhere I read the criticism that the US did not do a very good job or rotating and resting units but simply threw replacements into frontline troops in a wasteful manner. Does anybody have any insight into what the actual practice was for the US in WW2?


Well, I've got a story from family experience. My uncle (whom I never met) was with the 9th ID during the war. They went into North Africa, Sicily (about 1/2 way through), and Normandy at Utah on D+4. Went into Cherbourg and eventually ended up in the 'Battle of the Bulge' where in January '45 he became KIA. So in his case no rotation out except in a body bag.

On a brighter note his friend became my uncle when he married my aunt. My uncle and he went through it together and he came back (obviously) after only being WIA. Although it was not the milliion dollar wound, he went back into action after he healed. BTW they were assigned to a machine gun platoon.


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Post #: 45
RE: Books/Atkinson - 12/31/2014 3:43:00 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
screaming for validation.


I have never known anyone to spend so much time complaining about not getting enough validation as you. Maybe I just haven't spent enough time around those damn homo-sexers for comparison.



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Post #: 46
RE: Books/Atkinson - 1/2/2015 3:32:53 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		That was rather thoughtful of you Amoral, my opinion of you has risen substantially. Some will judge others by whether they belong to the same cult, others do by the substance of what is said. Once judged, you may wish to go further and discover if they are incorrigible or not. No one's judgment trumps any other's on matters of this sort but inflexibility in opinions and the inability to learn anything that contradicts current prejudices (which are easily seen by all) is not a good sign. I'm seeing in you the ability to arrive at logical conclusions not based on blind hatred. Good work, keep it up!

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Post #: 47
RE: Books/Atkinson - 1/2/2015 3:36:31 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Did I sound rather pompous there? I fear I did. Please forgive.

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Post #: 48
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