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RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/17/2014 11:03:35 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
I'm still testing but it appears there is a trigger, perhaps at Rapid Assembly Research, which allows Capital Ships to be built. Even if they show in the Ship Designer as buildable the AI will not actually build them until that trigger.

Rapid Assembly is now much earlier in the AI Research Orders. But there is still some delay before the AI will build Capital Ships, even though they are now Size 650 designed.

Also I see no evidence that "planet type X colony growth rate doubled" works.

Any ideas out there for these two issues?




< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/17/2014 12:03:48 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 151
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/17/2014 11:05:08 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe
On the plus side you see things like the standard Human Carrier having 80 armor and 10 fighter bays in the default design file now.

And you can expect to see a lot more of them in this mod, used by races that focus their research accordingly ...

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 152
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/17/2014 11:23:11 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		To help the AI with Pirates, given protection agreements are not well used, I've moved Armor Plating and Shields to the top of the Research Order.

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Post #: 153
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/17/2014 9:11:14 PM   
Elhazad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

To help the AI with Pirates, given protection agreements are not well used, I've moved Armor Plating and Shields to the top of the Research Order.


This will be very good i belive, as the few games i have started with lots and hard pirates have shut down many empires from growing a ton of times, only growing back after i cleared some of them. So far i enjoy games with normal pirates and no space monsters due to this.

One thing i wanna test a bit more and watch how the AI handles it, is troops and how they handle pirate hidden bases and such. I say this because in a few games (dont remember the race :\) pretty much all their planets had pirate fortresses etc and they where not attacking them, and if they did they lost due to launching the attack with not enough troops, all this while having 5 transport full of troops orbiting said planet...

PS. Cant wait till alpha!

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Post #: 154
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 1:31:50 AM   
Icemania


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Status: offline 		Elliott, is it possible to apply some shrinkage for civilian ships?

As an example the Gas Mining Ship that I have in this mod has 3 Mining Engines, 10 Thrusters and 6 Fuel Cells (which can be built at Size 230), compared to the default which has 1 Mining Engine, 5 Thrusters and 3 Fuel Cells (which can be built immediately). The performance difference between the two is significant.

On Expensive Research or above, getting Size 230 Research takes a little time, so the AI is delayed in building those mining ships if no shrinkage is permitted. So long as the designs have a minimum number of components (e.g. 1 Mining Engines, 5 Thrusters, 3 Fuel Cells) this would work well.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/18/2014 5:20:57 PM >

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Post #: 155
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 1:46:01 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elhazad
One thing i wanna test a bit more and watch how the AI handles it, is troops and how they handle pirate hidden bases and such. I say this because in a few games (dont remember the race :\) pretty much all their planets had pirate fortresses etc and they where not attacking them, and if they did they lost due to launching the attack with not enough troops, all this while having 5 transport full of troops orbiting said planet...

I've had the same observation. They tend to depend on using the troops they have on the planet only. There is little that I can do here, I agree it needs improvements, but would need support from Elliott and Erik.

(in reply to Elhazad)
Post #: 156
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 1:52:43 AM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Elliott, in "Normal Starts" (i.e. "Starting") the game does NOT use the Research Build Orders in the Race Files.

For example, in this mod the Kiadian are focused on Torpedoes. But the game gives them Beam Weapons and Enhanced Beam Weapons at the start of the game, which they do not use in their designs at all, rather than Energy Torpedoes per the Research Build Order. As a result they start the game with no weapons, which makes them very vulnerable.

So could the first X technologies in those Research Build Orders please be used on other starts?


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/18/2014 5:21:34 PM >

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Post #: 157
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 3:13:43 AM   
ehsumrell1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Elliott, in "Normal Starts" (i.e. "Starting") the game does NOT use the Research Build Orders in the Race Files.

For example, in this mod the Kiadian are focused on Torpedoes. But the game gives them Beam Weapons and Enhanced Beam Weapons at the start of the game, which they do not use in their designs at all, rather than Energy Torpedoes per the Research Build Order. As a result they start the game with no weapons, which makes they very vulnerable.

So could the first X technologies in those Research Build Orders please be used on other starts?


Just a question Icemania. You are aware that the race's Policy file overweighs the Tech Focuses in the
race file correct? Just wondering, in your aforementioned example, if the Kiadian Policy file's Tech
focuses are focused on Torpedoes as well. If not, then something IS amiss.


_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 158
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 8:48:04 AM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Thank you very much for the suggestion ehsumrell1. The Race and Policy file Tech Focus fields were not set to any weapon.

However, I had expected that Tech Focus in the Race files would only be used after the Research Build Orders in the Race files were complete. While this is the case Prewarp, for "Starting", it does influence what technologies are available as a higher priority than the Research Build Order. So by setting Torpedoes in the Race Files are ResearchDesignTechFocus1 they were available in a "Starting" game.

What was also interesting was what happened when I tinkered with the other selections. Some technologies are provided by default e.g. Shields. So putting Shields in as a ResearchDesignTechFocus had no impact. The settings that made a difference from default were Countermeasures, Target Tracking, secondary Weapons (e.g. Missiles), Sensors and Damage Control.

With a Research Build Order a danger would be that these selections would focus the AI on those areas. However, this is not a concern here, as once the game is built and started the Research Build Orders are then used.

I'll apply to this for each race for the Alpha release.

Thanks again.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/18/2014 9:48:36 AM >

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Post #: 159
RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 7/18/2014 11:08:15 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Also I see no evidence that "planet type X colony growth rate doubled" works.

This appears to be a bug, will report in Tech Support.


(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 160
AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/18/2014 12:25:03 PM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		The AI Improvement Mod has now been released as an Alpha, refer to the OP for details.

Your feedback to improve the mod is very welcome.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 161
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/18/2014 12:35:09 PM   
Blackstork


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Status: offline 		Great, Going to try it, huge thanks! thats very nice thing and research you doing here.

Please tell if there any chance you will make it compatible with extended mod?

_____________________________

Alien Immersion (WIP) : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651979
Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 162
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/18/2014 3:19:55 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackstork
Please tell if there any chance you will make it compatible with extended mod?

Yes ... but I will wait for final release of this version for Vanilla first. Making changes to include so many more races will require time and I would prefer to do it only once the Vanilla Mod is final to avoid rework.

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 163
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/18/2014 8:40:48 PM   
PsyKoSnake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

The AI Improvement Mod has now been released as an Alpha, refer to the OP for details.

Your feedback to improve the mod is very welcome.


Will do an other test this weekend.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 164
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 1:58:23 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Developer Support Wishlist
• Some Military Ships are built with no weapons (note I have a lot of larger sizes in the Design Templates) when they are shrunk by the game. There should be a minimum amount of weapons (say 50%) in the design before the AI should be allowed to build that ship.
• In monitoring the AI across various races, Helium Resource Shortages are very common, and Osalia Resource Shortages are common for Beam races (almost nothing is in stock). Could starting stocks of these resources please be increased to assist the AI?
• In the Design Templates Fighters Bays should be counted as a weapon. I’m trying to design a Fighter focused race but to avoid a crash I need to include another weapon that is not the focus for that race.

I've just tested the Patch 1.9.5.6 Beta using the Haakonish and Securan and can report these three issues look primarily to have been resolved.

Starting stocks of key resources such as Osalia and Helium have increased so less of these "common" resource shortages for the AI. I changed the Securan Cruiser designs (post Alpha) to remove the torpedo (so Fighter Bays only) and there was no crash.

Military Ships were built with weapons in all cases except one ... the new Securan Cruiser (which only has Fighter Bays) which was built at Size 300 with no Fighter Bays ... the AI built 6 of these anyway in the test.



< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/19/2014 3:06:05 AM >

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Post #: 165
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 7:59:59 AM   
Elhazad

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/15/2014
Status: offline 		Nice to come home and see alpha is up! ill start testing soon!

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Post #: 166
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 8:21:11 AM   
Icemania


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Joined: 6/5/2013
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Status: offline 		For those that consider Extreme easy, give it a try ...

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Post #: 167
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 9:00:40 AM   
sayke

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/26/2013
Status: offline 		This is so cool - thank you very much Icemania!! One question though - how well does it work with very hard (480k) research, do you think? Do explorers get built etc?

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Post #: 168
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 9:48:25 AM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		With the Alpha Release, Explorers and at least Escorts will be built from the start regardless. The designs are now around Size 230 and they get shrunk by the game to less than Size 160. So that is now in good shape but let me know if you encounter problems.

However, the outstanding issue is Civilian Ships as they do not get shrunk by the game. I've put this in my Developer Wishlist in the OP. Given other changes have been made already I'm hoping this is on the list. The other option, at final release, would be to issue two versions of the Mod, one with smaller Civilian Ships with much weaker performance (slower and less extraction), and one with the Civilian Ships as per the current version.

As a result I've said in the "about" text for the Alpha Release of the AI Improvement Mod theme is: "The Mod will work on all difficulties but will provide more of a challenge on higher difficulties i.e. at least hard. However, as there is no conditional logic in the Ship Design templates, Expensive Research and above should not be used in settings for this version of the Mod."

Exploration performance is vastly improved from Default. The AI builds more Explorers with designs that are faster. If starting population was > 3B they will also build earlier as I ensure that the AI builds a Medium Spaceport to start with, you won't have to wait for a Large Spaceport to build. Beyond pre-warp you'll find the AI gets it's fair share of goodies around the galaxy and you'll have less opportunities.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/19/2014 10:48:58 AM >

(in reply to sayke)
Post #: 169
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 9:58:48 AM   
Icemania


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Just to supplement the game I'm playing at the moment is on Expensive Research. I just had to accept the fact that Civilian Ships won't build until Size 230 is available.

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Post #: 170
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 1:36:54 PM   
Scott2933

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 7/19/2014
Status: offline 		Icemania,

First, thanks for an awesome mod! Playing on Hard (and longer research - I know you said not to but wanted to try it). Game was much more fun. I did get an error but I'm using the latest beta version 1.9.5.6. Just wanted to post the error just in case it was something with your mod (please let me know - otherwise I'll post it for Elliot in tech support). I didn't want to do that initially because I'm modded - although I only have your mod loaded.

Thanks again,

Mozo




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 171
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 2:03:30 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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Joined: 6/9/2014
Status: offline 		I'm actually considering not using extended universe for the first time ever, good work.

That said, will extreme difficulty still be testicle-crushingly easy?

(in reply to Scott2933)
Post #: 172
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:08:40 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott2933

Icemania,

First, thanks for an awesome mod! Playing on Hard (and longer research - I know you said not to but wanted to try it). Game was much more fun. I did get an error but I'm using the latest beta version 1.9.5.6. Just wanted to post the error just in case it was something with your mod (please let me know - otherwise I'll post it for Elliot in tech support). I didn't want to do that initially because I'm modded - although I only have your mod loaded.

Thanks again,

Mozo





Glad you are having fun! It seems quite a few of us are having this error and it is not specific to this mod, there is already a thread in tech support, seems to be a bit of a showstopper. From the wording in the error message it seems exploration related and the AI is far more aggressive about exploration in this mod.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/19/2014 4:23:22 PM >

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Post #: 173
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:20:53 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

I'm actually considering not using extended universe for the first time ever, good work.

That said, will extreme difficulty still be testicle-crushingly easy?

I'm glad you asked because as you probably know I have the same view of Extreme, per my AAR. Indeed it's the main reason I wanted to do this Mod!

What I can report is that it's definitely harder but please also have reasonable expectations.

I still recommend avoiding all the obvious exploits .... like the entire diplomacy system! e.g. technology selling, trading sanctions etc.

Play a game and let me know how it goes.

(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 174
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:27:01 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		And by the way, if anybody actually loses a game on Extreme ... or falls way behind the AI ... I want screenshots!!!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/19/2014 4:31:24 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 175
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:28:42 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Anybody who plays this Mod on Normal, Hard or Very Hard is officially a wimp.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 176
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:39:22 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

I'm glad you asked because as you probably know I have the same view of Extreme, per my AAR. Indeed it's the main reason I wanted to do this Mod!

What I can report is that it's definitely harder but please also have reasonable expectations.

I still recommend avoiding all the obvious exploits .... like the entire diplomacy system! e.g. technology selling, trading sanctions etc.

Play a game and let me know how it goes.



Hey man, will do!

Any chance you can fix those exploits as well? :3

I wish the AI was a bit more aggressive, they just sit around as-is. I even set the galaxy to be chaotic and modded the races to be aggressive :(

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 177
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 3:51:36 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

Hey man, will do!

Any chance you can fix those exploits as well? :3

I wish the AI was a bit more aggressive, they just sit around as-is. I even set the galaxy to be chaotic and modded the races to be aggressive :(



I wish I could do something about those exploits but it's not open to Modding. Even the Extreme Game of the Month #1 was easy if you used those exploits.

The AI is more aggressive because I've significantly changed the Racial Biases (+40/-40) and I've also made changes to the Policy Files for some races e.g. WarWillingness. If you feel it is still not aggressive enough I can make further changes.

From my test games, you want to be very careful what wars you get involved in ...


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/19/2014 4:53:31 PM >

(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 178
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:00:34 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I double dare you to put it on Chaotic as well!

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 179
RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:05:25 PM   
ParagonExile

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

I double dare you to put it on Chaotic as well!


Bro, that's the way I roll 24/7.

I STILL get everyone to delighted, lol :D

Seriously though I'm pretty pumped.

< Message edited by ParagonExile -- 7/19/2014 5:06:45 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 180
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