RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:11:45 PM

Icemania

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Don't worry I've tested even more aggressive WarWillingness settings in the Policy Files. If you want more, I can give you more!

But please test this first. I'm mindful that different people play in different ways. So just make sure you accept those invitations to go to war to help your friends ...

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Post #: 181

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:12:57 PM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Seriously though I'm pretty pumped.

Please remember it's an Alpha and I need feedback. Even so, there is no way I'm playing Vanilla again.

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Post #: 182

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:14:43 PM

Icemania

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GxBO Bug Tech Support Thread

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Post #: 183

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 4:24:37 PM

ParagonExile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Seriously though I'm pretty pumped.

Please remember it's an Alpha and I need feedback. Even so, there is no way I'm playing Vanilla again.

You've put me in a position of picking extended universe (which I basically redid and overhauled with my personal preferences) or your mod which improves the game immeasurably.

Ack, Icemania, damn you!

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Post #: 184

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/19/2014 9:57:00 PM

Blackstork

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Hehe just release extended - compatible version. :P
Cause i am working with own immersion/extension features on extended base to try this one i must to switch back from extended which is also pimped on my side :(

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 7/19/2014 10:57:09 PM >

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Post #: 185

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 12:06:40 AM

Tcby

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Luckily for me I didn't install the Beta...so I'm still able to test this mod. I've just fired up a game with Haree, Das, and Blackstork's graphics, so any screenshots I post will be beautiful

. I'll be testing with all normal settings, + excellent homeworlds and few pirates. If you are dead set against pirates in test games Ice, let me know and I'll start another game.

Regarding your design questions for tractor beams and assault pods, the use of tractor beams seems an easy way to mitigate the current issue with AI hovering at ~80% range all the time.

IMO Ikkuro should have assault pods, firstly because their flavour text says they love to pull new technology apart and tinker with it. Where do you get 'new' tech from if you haven't taken it from somebody else...? Researching it yourself would negate the need to pull it apart to understand it. Secondly, their high troop strength also means they have some of the strongest boarding pods in the game. This should be a factor when you play against them.

Finally, I'm glad you swapped the Quameno weapon focus to gravitic. Not only are torps out of character, but I feel they give too much of an inherent advantage to the Quameno. Their research speed means that they spend the least time of any race in early-mid game, which is the only time the torp line isn't strictly superior.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 12:41:09 AM

Icemania

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Nice idea with the Ikkuro and Tractor Beams Tcby ... let me do some testing. As I don't play with Tractor Beams, when exactly do they pull in, versus push away?

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Post #: 187

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 1:31:20 AM

Tcby

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They push / pull based on the relative firepower of the ships. ships with lower firepower are always pulled in, and vice versa. The obvious issue is that a ship with Titan beams and / or assault pods always wants to pull other ships in, as long as they are somewhat comparable in size or have significant numerical overmatch.

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Post #: 188

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 1:43:26 AM

Icemania

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Tractor Beams worked well when the Ikkuro ship was significantly larger. I would imagine that is the normal case for people who use these weapons in game. However, for the AI in this mod a lot more of the battles will be relatively even.

In a test between an Ikkuro Cruiser with Beams/Pods/Tractor Beams and a Kiadian Cruiser with Torpedoes (so evenly matched in size and technology) ... the Ikkuro ship pushed the Kiadian ship away, out of Beam range and into good Torpedo range, which turned the battle into a slaughter.

In a test between an Ikkuro Cruiser with Beams/Pods/Tractor Beams and a Kiadian Destroyer with Torpedoes (so the Ikkuro ship is larger Size 500 v Size 400) ... the tractor beam was not powerful enough to pull the Kiadian ship into close range (noting also the "All Weapons" ship tactic), the ships stayed at a range where Beams were weak and Torpedoes were still strong, so the Kiadian ship won.

I had much better results if the Ikkuro Cruiser tactic was set to "Point Blank". As the Ikkuro Ship was focused on it's target the Tractor Beam slowly pulled it closer. It managed to defeated the Kiadian Destroyer by boarding but lost all Shields in the process. Note again that there is nothing in the Design Templates as yet to set "Point Blank" for the AI. And if we did have that setting, we also need to be able to configure the Tractor Beams, otherwise there will be situations where the Ship Tactic and Tractor Beams work against each other.

The other issue is that the technology tree for Assault Pods means that the AI has to research quite advanced Fighters and Point Defence as well to get to the better Assault Pods. The AI still has to research a Primary Weapon to get those shields down and enable boarding so the research investment is massive. Again, this may work for human players used to having a large advantage, but this seems a poor strategy for the AI, given the limitations above. If we could set the Ship Tactic and Tractor Beam Tactic for a Ship, I would also break those links in the Technology Tree, to make this combination more feasible.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 2:49:19 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 1:51:00 AM

Blackstork

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Wow, cant wait for extended compatible version :V

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Post #: 190

RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 1:52:28 AM

Icemania

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Help me test this version and iron it out, and I'll get to Extended faster ...

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 1:57:23 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
I'll be testing with all normal settings, + excellent homeworlds and few pirates. If you are dead set against pirates in test games Ice, let me know and I'll start another game.

I've played a number of test games with Pirates so go for it. My concern is that there isn't much more I can do to help the AI. Often they allow themselves to get wiped out or they sign-up to agreements which bankrupt them.

In the very early pre-warp game, before they have any defences, they should emulate the human tactic i.e. sign an agreement but then cancel as soon as they leave. After they have some reasonable defences it would be fine to have some variation in AI behaviour. In the meantime, it's just a handicap.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 2:57:39 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 2:10:21 AM

Tcby

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Good point about comparable ship size. I agree that given the evidence you have provided, tractor beams and assault pods are not feasible as things stand. With that in mind, here are my thoughts on your points:

If ship tactics can be set in the future, could we drastically increase the power of tractor beams to make them effective against same-size ships? I can't think of a reason not to do this. IIRC tractor beam strength is governed by the same firepower rating as other components, and so can be adjusted.

On the subject of research investment, this is not strictly necessary for the Ikkuro or other races with powerful troops. Their boarding strength is already very large relative to other races. A slight increase to boarding range (and shield penetration...?) from the first tech level may also offset the limited pull of tractor beams versus same-size or larger ships.

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

Edit: I've set pirates to very few and weak. They'll be a token presence, there for the sake of my own enjoyment.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 7/20/2014 3:13:34 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 2:23:28 AM

DeadlyShoe

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quote:

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

It's not really necessary for boarding to be viable in big fleet actions. Judging how many pods are necessary for a target can actually get pretty complicated when you start factoring in point defense and that more pods = faster capture.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 2:44:55 AM

Tcby

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I think our wires are crossed someplace. I wasn't trying to say that a fleet with boarding pods should be able to capture another fleet. The reason it is unfeasible is also the reason why the AI can get away with not going deeply into the tree, so it's all good.

Or have I mistaken your meaning?

< Message edited by Tcby -- 7/20/2014 3:46:00 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:00:11 AM

Tcby

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Another thought on tractor beams:
If we can't use them well on AI ships, how about AI bases? How well does a large space port pull in enemy ships? Is there a large benefit from it having a size advantage? Or does it always push enemy ships? A rail gun or titan beam focused race would really benefit from tractor beams on ports and other bases, if they worked properly...

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:02:13 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
If ship tactics can be set in the future, could we drastically increase the power of tractor beams to make them effective against same-size ships? I can't think of a reason not to do this. IIRC tractor beam strength is governed by the same firepower rating as other components, and so can be adjusted.

Absolutely, I was thinking that during the testing. We would still need to be able to set Tractor Beam tactics to ensure they are aligned with Ship Tactics, otherwise they will work against each other.

The ability to set Tractor Beam tactics would allow me to include Tractor Beams for other races as well. For example, the Ackdarian are very passive and use Torpedoes, I could use Tractor Beams to stop enemy ships from getting to point blank range i.e. an alignment between weapon, tactics and racial characteristics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
On the subject of research investment, this is not strictly necessary for the Ikkuro or other races with powerful troops. Their boarding strength is already very large relative to other races. A slight increase to boarding range (and shield penetration...?) from the first tech level may also offset the limited pull of tractor beams versus same-size or larger ships.

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

Noted. It's a real pity they don't load intelligently. In the Research Order I could certainly prioritise Tractor Beam research over higher levels of Assault Pods. We could set up some Fleet Battles to see what happens with the improved tactics and Tractor Beams.

I don't think we should rule out Assault Pod research though. I can break those links to other research areas easily enough. Further increasing shield penetration, boarding range and speed maybe a good idea for balance given the need to reduce other weapons to fit the Pods and Tractors in the first place.

From what I can tell Shield penetration looks to be a number rather than a percentage, so even at maximum technology it looks extraordinarily low.

If we can't set Ship Tactics and Tractor Beam Tactics, maybe significant changes here are an option.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 4:03:11 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:11:33 AM

Tcby

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I think this would all be simpler if there were a separate tech for push versus pulling tractor beams. That specificity + much stronger beams would allow us to emulate the more complex interactions of ship tactics (point blank etc), IF the latter is an issue for Elliot to implement. If that makes sense. I wonder what that would do to the importance of thruster tech...it would probably be somewhat diminished if everyone had a powerful push or pull beam.

Also in case you missed my last post when you were typing your response, I'm testing tractor beams on bases now.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:35:11 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
Another thought on tractor beams:
If we can't use them well on AI ships, how about AI bases? How well does a large space port pull in enemy ships? Is there a large benefit from it having a size advantage? Or does it always push enemy ships? A rail gun or titan beam focused race would really benefit from tractor beams on ports and other bases, if they worked properly...

Good idea. I just tested this and Tractor Beams on a Large Spaceport will pull in even a Size 1500 Capital Ship.

The problem is Tractor Beam range. Even a Maximum Technology Tractor Beam only has a range of 440. A Torpedo or Missile opponent on "All Weapons" will remain well out of range.

I'm going to test drastically increasing Tractor Beam range so that you can't kite Spaceports, as it's far too easy to abuse. Tractor Beams will be set to have a range slightly higher than the equivalent tech level Missile Range.

If Tractor Beam Tactics could be set this would also be useful for other races e.g. passive races like the Ackdarian could push ships away.

Either way, if you want that Spaceport you'll have to attack with sufficient force that you overwhelm the Tractor Beams of the Spaceport ...

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:44:16 AM

Icemania

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I wouldn't suggest a new technology for Tractor Beams, it just needs a tactic setting.

The problem with Tractor Beams on Spaceports is Troop Transports. If you pull them in, it might help with the invasion.

So ideally "pull in" Tractor Beams should hold ships at a close range, say 100, so that they are not close enough to invade (and push them back out to 100 as required), but they are close enough for short range weapons on the Spaceport to cause havoc.

This would make sneaky surprise invasions from human players more difficult.

And even in peacetime those Troop Transports should never be allowed to close within 100 range. A friendly Tractor Beam could make sure you don't get too close and act as a trigger for the AI to send you a warning.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 4:56:33 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:53:10 AM

Icemania

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I've added the ability to configure Tractor Beam tactics in the Ship and Base Design Templates to the Developer Support Wishlist in the OP.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 3:53:54 AM

Tcby

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I like the idea of pulling tractor beams holding at 100.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 8:53:25 AM

Icemania

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If your strategy involves Wonders you will have a harder time getting them first with this Mod, particularly on Extreme. For passive races in the Beta I'm going to slightly increase the number of Labs for High Tech and slightly reduce the number of Labs for Weapons. I'm not going to change it by too much as it's important all races develop their weapons even if only for defence, but this would provide a better balance. Which will make your life even harder to get Wonders first ...

< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/20/2014 9:53:43 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 8:57:57 AM

Sithuk

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@icemania: Is there anything you can do with the mod to lessen the impact of sneak invasions? Can you increase the penalty to invading with a base in orbit?

quote:

This would make sneaky surprise invasions from human players more difficult.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 9:02:12 AM

Sithuk

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@icemania: Might the AI be helped with an earlier repairbot function? It should stop ships retreating to repair when they only have a few damaged armour. The side effect for human players would mean less micromanagement of the same minor damaged ships. Will you consider the advantages to the AI of a starting tech repair bot component?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 9:12:36 AM

Icemania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
@icemania: Is there anything you can do with the mod to lessen the impact of sneak invasions? Can you increase the penalty to invading with a base in orbit?

Unfortunately there is nothing I can do from a modding perspective (that I can see anyway).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
@icemania: Might the AI be helped with an earlier repairbot function? It should stop ships retreating to repair when they only have a few damaged armour. The side effect for human players would mean less micromanagement of the same minor damaged ships. Will you consider the advantages to the AI of a starting tech repair bot component?

From an AI performance perspective this is a good idea, I'll move Repair Bots up the Research Order for the Beta. How early do you think? I still think Hyperdrive and Construction Size (at least up to Rapid Assembly) should take priority but I could make them the next technology to focus on.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 9:28:45 AM

Sithuk

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How about introducing a new lower tech level repairbot component and associate it with a tech that is already researched fairly early on? Such as the level 1 armour? The lower tech repairbot could have a longer repair time to keep the incentive to progress towards the later tech repairbot components with faster repair times.

I appreciate that any new component should be carefully considered as the focus of your mod is AI improvement of the standard game, not to significantly alter the standard game. Introducing an existing component type, with lesser performance, at an earlier research level would appear to be "in theme" and not too significant a change?

I appreciate that modifying all the design templates to include the lower tech component would likely be a significant investment of your time. Do you think it would be worth it?

Is it possible to have an existing component, such as armour have a repairbot like ability? Or might that be changing the gameplay too much from standard?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 10:00:07 AM

Icemania

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Yes I'm interested in tech tree changes ... only if they clearly help the AI. This may well fall into that category.

The changes you suggest would be trivial to implement with just some changes to components.txt and research.txt. There is no need to change the design templates as they have a damage control component (which becomes Repair Bots once available) in any case.

To avoid upsetting the balance with Rail Guns and Gravitics I agree the repair rate would have to be very slow. Maybe 30 seconds at Damage Control and 15 seconds at Enhanced Damage Control (compared to 5 seconds and 3 seconds with the current Repair Bot technologies).

There is no way to mod armour to have a repair component.

I'm interested in community views.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 11:04:56 AM

Icemania

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I did some testing by letting a ship get heavily damaged, then deleted the attacking ship and waited for repairs. Unfortunately setting Repair Time in components.txt and research.txt does not work as indicated in the Modding Manual. I set the Damage Control technology to repair one component every 30 seconds but components were still being repaired every few seconds. I couldn't tell the difference to normal Repair Bots. I'll add this to the Developer Wishlist in the OP.

For info in the AI Improvement Mod note that all civilian ship and base designs have a Damage Control/Repair Bot component to avoid that repair micro when they are damaged, once the technology is available.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release) - 7/20/2014 12:08:29 PM

Tcby

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That's a shame. Whilst I don't like the idea of getting repair bots so quickly, it would be worth it for the sake of the AI.

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