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Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine

 
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Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 10:25:39 AM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/13/2014
Status: offline 		From many threads about refueling it look like there is consensus it should be handled manually - doctrine set to unrep no, reset to yes for refueling AC, and set back to no after refueling. I agree it is safest way of doing things - leaving unrep yes is asking for troubles.

But this safest way is also very "click intensive", and as it is manual it is error prone.

I am wondering - is it possible to have unrep policy setings "when ordered"? It should behave as "no" as long as player is not selecting "Refuel if possible" order. When player is selecting "Refuel is possible" it should behave as unrep "yes" reverting to "no" behavior just after refueling.

From my experience such policy settings would simplify manual refueling a lot. Obviously, I have no idea how complicated is adding such feature.
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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 10:57:06 AM   
Dimitris

 

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Status: offline 		First of all, I think that broad statements such as "there is consensus it should be handled manually" are over-simplifying the situation.

Load and play "Wooden Leg". A fairly complex long-range airstrike, with refuelling on both the outbound and inbound legs, is handled perfectly by the AI without a hitch. There are of course also many other examples where refuelling works exactly as expected.

So the question then becomes what is different than that setup at each situation which is currently problematic.

It may be worthwhile to bring together on a single thread (this one here or another one) all the reported refuelling problems and examine their setups to see where they are alike and in what aspects they differ. It may also be useful to re-test them under the current public build as ISTR we fixed at least 2 issues related to refuelling recently so there is a fair chance that many of these problems may no longer exist.

Fault isolation is the necessary first step in resolving a given problem. Help us help you.

Thanks!

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 7/2/2014 11:57:56 AM >

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 11:34:45 AM   
pjb1

 

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Status: offline 		In my humble opinion, I believe what upsets players most about refueling is when the AI drains your tankers and you are left with no gas in the air when needed. Turning unrep to off fixes this as we all know but sometimes you forget this and get zapped by your AI allies. The best solution I see to this is have the AIs unrep turned to off, only hitch there is if the AI has tankers too. Maybe some script that only allows the AI to tank from player controlled with permission.

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 12:46:00 PM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/13/2014
Status: offline 		First of all - selective quote is very powerful tool - "there is consensus", but if you quote few more words "it look like there is consensus". Still so broad statement?

But going back to refueling - sometimes it works, sometimes don't, at least as handled by AI. You have given your sample, here appended is mine. At the beginning of scen A-6 is bingo, but with plenty of fuel to get back to carrier. And as long as there is unrep yes it is going into drink. Run under B553. And there is more than one problem - please notice intercept path - A-6 is intercepting tanker like dog.

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 1:37:57 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Probably best to pick this up again after a break.

Mike



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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 2:12:47 PM   
Rudd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hb921

First of all - selective quote is very powerful tool - "there is consensus", but if you quote few more words "it look like there is consensus". Still so broad statement?

But going back to refueling - sometimes it works, sometimes don't, at least as handled by AI. You have given your sample, here appended is mine. At the beginning of scen A-6 is bingo, but with plenty of fuel to get back to carrier. And as long as there is unrep yes it is going into drink. Run under B553. And there is more than one problem - please notice intercept path - A-6 is intercepting tanker like dog.

Not sure how you think this should work or want it to work.

If you want the A-6 to head to carrier, UNREP No, if you want it to try and "drink" from a tanker that is too far away and flying too fast, UNREP Yes

The A-6 is 700nm from carrier on plotted course, and the KA-6 is on plotted course at cruise 450nm(at closest point) away from A-6.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I think this example is unrealistic.

quote:

I am wondering - is it possible to have unrep policy setings "when ordered"? It should behave as "no" as long as player is not selecting "Refuel if possible" order. When player is selecting "Refuel is possible" it should behave as unrep "yes" reverting to "no" behavior just after refueling.

I like this, if "xxxx Doctrine/ROE", Use Refuel/UNREP is set to No, but you right click on unit/group and Refuel(if possible), it does it as a one-time order(unless player orders it again)






< Message edited by Rudd -- 7/2/2014 3:14:32 PM >

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 2:27:47 PM   
Rudd

 

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Status: offline 		I think a lot of the Refueling "issues" are caused by the players (me included) not setting the tanker tracks up correctly, in the right spot or the right speed, maybe not enough tankers(either by scenario author design or just not enough put in the air by the player).

Just saying

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 3:48:43 PM   
mats0916@rogers.com


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From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

quote:

I am wondering - is it possible to have unrep policy setings "when ordered"? It should behave as "no" as long as player is not selecting "Refuel if possible" order. When player is selecting "Refuel is possible" it should behave as unrep "yes" reverting to "no" behavior just after refueling.


I like this, if "xxxx Doctrine/ROE", Use Refuel/UNREP is set to No, but you right click on unit/group and Refuel(if possible), it does it as a one-time order(unless player orders it again)


Maybe even give this as an option in the mission editor to allow certain missions to refuel if Refuel/UNREP doctrine is set to As ordered.

Just my 0,5 cents

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 4:08:54 PM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

Not sure how you think this should work or want it to work.

If you want the A-6 to head to carrier, UNREP No, if you want it to try and "drink" from a tanker that is too far away and flying too fast, UNREP Yes

The A-6 is 700nm from carrier on plotted course, and the KA-6 is on plotted course at cruise 450nm(at closest point) away from A-6.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I think this example is unrealistic.


This example was supposed to be illustrative. If you want it to be realistic just add outgoing strike heading the same direction as KA-6, and you have a reason why KA-6 happened to be there.
I am aware that unrep set to no would save A-6. But you need to change it manually to prevent AI from crashing AC. Lets imagine for a while that A-6 refueled on way out - the reason unrep is set to yes. You need to change doctrine to prevent it from chasing tankers on way back. No problem with one AC. Pain in a.. when there is a lot of them.

EDITED: spelling.

< Message edited by hb921 -- 7/2/2014 7:49:28 PM >

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 4:13:37 PM   
pjb1

 

Posts: 676
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjb1

In my humble opinion, I believe what upsets players most about refueling is when the AI drains your tankers and you are left with no gas in the air when needed. Turning unrep to off fixes this as we all know but sometimes you forget this and get zapped by your AI allies. The best solution I see to this is have the AIs unrep turned to off, only hitch there is if the AI has tankers too. Maybe some script that only allows the AI to tank from player controlled with permission.


Guess I missed the mark on this subject with that statement. As far as refueling my planes I hardly ever have a problem. I always try to make sure I tank planes on the way out to a mission. In RL when plane take off from carriers they use max power which means big fuel usage, right after takeoff they take a quick drink to top off tanks, I use this method in the game and it seems to work out pretty good. You can always place a tanker farther out for a return drink too, but I do it all manual. Maybe a programmable waypoint in the mission editor would be a suggestion but then you would have to make sure a tanker is a that waypoint. Tanking in RL is very complex and this game is so awesomely realistic that some things are going to be complex too.

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 5:14:28 PM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/13/2014
Status: offline 		As Wooden Leg was mentioned I run it under B553. Refueling on way out was OK, on way back it was not. What had happened is attached. But there is even more - save and reload is somehow reseting AI logic - if you resume from any of saves AI is regaining its senses and heading in real direction. I guess I should add a thread in tech support?

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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 5:49:11 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Sure. We'll get to it when we get back.

Mike

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Post #: 12
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 7:42:32 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Sure. We'll get to it when we get back.

Mike


Where are we going!

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 13
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 7:46:41 PM   
navwarcol

 

Posts: 637
Joined: 12/2/2009
Status: offline 		I have not had any issues with air refuel. That would lead me to think it is situation specific and I simply have not had the situation develop yet.

Naval UNREP, on the other hand .....

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Post #: 14
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 8:15:12 PM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/13/2014
Status: offline 		Load Wooden Leg in scenario editor, accelerate and watch. Run it 5 times, each time something runs out of fuel (twice it was a tanker after reaching bingo - this one is really surprising...). Haven't tried UNREP yet, guess it is going to be fun.

< Message edited by hb921 -- 7/2/2014 9:15:43 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 8:52:54 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Sure. We'll get to it when we get back.

Mike


Where are we going!

Regards,
Feltan


Beach, beer, sleep. Not necessarily in the same order.

Mike

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Post #: 16
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 9:47:45 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Not saying there isn't an issue, but the comment is really saying you seem to think there is a consensus and there isn't. Its not completely broken. It doesn't work in specific circumstances. I have never had issues with refueling. But I have not played every scenario.

Can I suggest not getting would up and making sweeping generalizations as a way to get a consensus.

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Post #: 17
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 10:56:50 PM   
hb921

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/13/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Not saying there isn't an issue, but the comment is really saying you seem to think there is a consensus and there isn't. Its not completely broken. It doesn't work in specific circumstances. I have never had issues with refueling. But I have not played every scenario.

Can I suggest not getting would up and making sweeping generalizations as a way to get a consensus.


Fine, so there is no consensus, at least two participants of this forum disconsent. And there is possibility that there are more participants that disconsent.

To summarize issue - as it is now, to handle refueling manually (if one, as me, has a whim to do it), it is necessary to set side doctrine unrep to no (this one is easy, it is set once).

To refuel plane/group it is necessary to:
right click plane group;
from menu select Unit/Group doctrine;
in doctrine dialog select unrep yes;
close dialog;
right click plane group;
from menu select Refuel(if possible);
after refueling don't forget to:
right click plane group;
from menu select Unit/Group doctrine;
in doctrine dialog select unrep no;
close dialog.

10 steps to refuel plane/group. 4 of them to be done after refueling - so player need to follow each plane/group to reset doctrine after refueling.
Wouldn't it be convenient to have doctrine allowing doing it in just 2 steps?


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RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 11:07:02 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Okay issues regarding Wooden Leg logged and we'll pick up on these when we're back.

Thanks!

Mike



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Post #: 19
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 7/2/2014 11:59:23 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Sure. We'll get to it when we get back.

Mike


Where are we going!

Regards,
Feltan


Beach, beer, sleep. Not necessarily in the same order.

Mike


Have a great time.

It reminds me of my priorities in the distant days of being single with no kids. Now, I will be happy to be able to cut the grass without having to be a taxi cab in between front yard and back.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 20
RE: Suggestion - additional settings for UNREP doctrine - 8/22/2014 7:01:01 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
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Status: offline 		Fixed.

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