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RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game?

 
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RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/20/2014 12:23:02 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Thanks !
Seems to me that someone must as soon a possible stay on the par with the TERP number , because all effort/anttention done for the actual output what is more than the TERP number is a waste of time ..or the research facilitities offers extra strategical elements ?
( it is like a chess game : every unnecessary move slows you down in your strategical movement )
Minimal research time for a maximum in tech development .. how do you get this ..
The speed of research is important..the population is growing so also the TERP number and so the number of research station
If say you could do it with 5 research station and you wil add double of them, then it takes 1/2 time, so research speed is increasing.
Forgive me when i miss something..
BUT you cannot more assign scientists to labs than the TERP number!
You can construct research facilities who are capable of housing more scientist , but your empire has only a number TERP scientist to go to those labs

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/20/2014 2:04:12 PM >

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 31
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/20/2014 12:30:55 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		The TERP is applied to your lab CAPACITY to determine the split on the three tech areas. You get MORE than TERP when bonuses are applied to actually utilized capacity, generally 1.5 to 4 times more. If you crash research an area, then you get triple that rate until the tech being crashed is learned.

Lonnie Courtney Clay
Edit : Guide to guides see research list

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3497284


< Message edited by Jeeves -- 7/20/2014 1:34:47 PM >

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(in reply to janamdo)
Post #: 32
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/20/2014 1:07:31 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		BUT you cannot more assign scientists to labs than the TERP number!
You can construct research facilities who are capable of housing more scientist , but your empire has only a number TERP scientist to go to those labs


(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 33
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/20/2014 1:21:03 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		Hmm, well I don't consider a few thousand extra purchase and maintenance cost for extra labs to be an obstacle, on a budget that is millions per year. If you don't like having more capacity than is actually usable, then just scrap the labs you think are excess...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Post #: 34
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/20/2014 1:47:40 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		It takes also time and extra attention ( you might get distracted by this ) .. why doing something with no use ? ( strictly spoken ), but perhaps there is a use for the overbuild? --> research speed ?
Keeping it as simple as possible is always the best strategy!

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/25/2014 9:10:30 PM >

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 35
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 12:40:57 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Thanks @Lonnie for your save files..gives a tremendous insight how you setup your game.
Now i can imagine how much time it takes..

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/21/2014 3:26:02 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 2:28:12 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		Well I manage everything, and once the game is into the second decade it averages 20+ minutes per day, including strategy review and managing miners... I spend over 80 hours per week playing, being unemployed and having nothing better to do with my time.

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to janamdo)
Post #: 37
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 8:52:27 PM   
Keston


Posts: 300
Joined: 5/7/2010
Status: offline 		Reading various explanations of research tends to get me confused.

Just to get it clear, someone who fully understands this please confirm if is it correct that

Research Points actually applied to research cannot exceed the Research Potential number in the upper right of the Research Screen except that

- bonuses listed on the right column under Research Potential increase the Research Potential cap, allowing more of the available RPs to be applied to actual research (rather than multiplying research output, output being wasted to the extent over capacity)

- crash projects and anything else that speeds research in an area multiplies the effect of research points applied to developing the technology being worked on in that area.

Thanks


(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 38
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 9:13:56 PM   
johanwanderer

 

Posts: 209
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  1. Weapon Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity) * (Weapon Capacity / Total Capacity) * Weapon Bonuses
  2. Energy Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity)* (Energy Capacity / Total Capacity) * Energy Bonuses
  3. HiTech Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity) * (HiTech Capacity / Total Capacity) * HiTech Bonuses

Crash research = multiply that by 3.

So basically, keep Total Capacity (bottom left) just a bit higher than Research Potential (top right). Everything else is then just a ratio between how much labs and bonuses you have.

Edit: use min(Potential, Total Capacity) instead of just Potential.

< Message edited by johanwanderer -- 7/21/2014 10:23:11 PM >

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 39
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 9:27:20 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		My understanding of this TERP number ( total empire research potential ) is this... the actual research output for the 3 fields (weapons, energy /research,...) are summed up so it make no sense if it is larger than TERP.
TERP are the available scientists in your empire and the actual research output is the labcapacity for housing those scientist
Simply put you can build 1000 labs , but when there is one scientist in your empire to go to that lab...

Why there is a bonus ? ... a standard lab with a bonus can house more scientist than normally the case is...so you need less labs to get the TERP number.
http://distant-worlds.wikispot.org/Research_and_Technology
wiki :
quote:

It is useless to build more laboratories than your research potential can handle, so knowing this number can be helpful when considering your investments.

quote:

Try to optimize Research Lab building and the amount of lab space (TRC) and get that number at or slightly above the TERP, because excessive (and in the end, empty) labs will only cost you money. On the other hand there is of course no harm in having more lab space available (if you are not short on money), as this is for instance good for future expansion, providing you will have your colonies gradually grow and increase in their culture quality. In the end your strategy is yours to follow, the above is just a recommendation for optimized behavior.

Correct when i am wrong..

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/21/2014 10:51:10 PM >

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 40
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 10:09:17 PM   
Keston


Posts: 300
Joined: 5/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johanwanderer

  1. Weapon Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity) * (Weapon Capacity / Total Capacity) * Weapon Bonuses
  2. Energy Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity)* (Energy Capacity / Total Capacity) * Energy Bonuses
  3. HiTech Research = min(Potential, Total Capacity) * (HiTech Capacity / Total Capacity) * HiTech Bonuses

Crash research = multiply that by 3.

So basically, keep Total Capacity (bottom left) just a bit higher than Research Potential (top right). Everything else is then just a ratio between how much labs and bonuses you have.


Please confirm if I understand your formulae correctly as saying that:
* The additive sum of the bonuses listed in the right hand screen box is applied after the Research\Potential calculation in your formula
* Crashx3 or any other multiplier is then applied
* These yield the Actual Output, meaning the actual amount of research currently being done, which with bonuses can greatly exceed the TERP in red (which means the big action is in collecting bonuses).

(I am asking carefully since I've seen this explained very differently and usually incompletely in ways indicating Actual Output above the Potential is wasted, and bonuses apply only up to the cap set by the potential number in red - which would make bonuses near useless as capacity approaches potential.)


< Message edited by Keston -- 7/21/2014 11:10:40 PM >

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Post #: 41
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 10:49:17 PM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		I got my information from WIKI, better is to get the information from the developers..or not


< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/22/2014 9:58:16 PM >

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 42
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/21/2014 11:41:37 PM   
Tcby


Posts: 342
Joined: 12/16/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		johanwanderer is correct.

If you couldn't exceed the TERP with bonuses then the entire research mechanic would be broken, and nobody would ever build bases at bonus locations. Nor would they build science wonders.

As many people have recommended in the past, think of total empire research potential as the number of labs you can staff. The output of those labs is what is improved via bonuses. So you build labs = to slightly more than you can staff, to cover steady increase in research potential, and build them in locations that make your labs more effective than they would otherwise be. Thus, even though you can only staff so many labs, your actual research output should be MUCH higher than your empire research capacity.

To simplify this, TERP should instead be called total empire lab capacity, or somesuch. This is because the TERP only limits the amount of research points you can obtain from unmodified (ie without bonuses) lab components.

Edit: and yes keston, bonuses are (edit: additive) and applied to your output after your total research is whittled down to match your TERP. They do not simply increase your cap. Because of this, you still get your bonuses even if you are researching under your TERP value.

< Message edited by Tcby -- 7/22/2014 5:29:15 AM >

(in reply to janamdo)
Post #: 43
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/22/2014 3:54:16 AM   
johanwanderer

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/28/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

Please confirm if I understand your formulae correctly as saying that:
* The additive sum of the bonuses listed in the right hand screen box is applied after the Research\Potential calculation in your formula
* Crashx3 or any other multiplier is then applied
* These yield the Actual Output, meaning the actual amount of research currently being done, which with bonuses can greatly exceed the TERP in red (which means the big action is in collecting bonuses).

(I am asking carefully since I've seen this explained very differently and usually incompletely in ways indicating Actual Output above the Potential is wasted, and bonuses apply only up to the cap set by the potential number in red - which would make bonuses near useless as capacity approaches potential.)



The additive bonus is applied to the actual capacity (capacity as adjusted by potential) to yield actual output. As long as your total capacity exceeds potential, actual output is what you should look at. It should be exactly as the formula above shows.

When you crash research a project, take that actual output and multiply that by 3. Alternatively, take the remaining cost of the project and divide that by 3. The latter makes more sense since it doesn't imply that the benefit carries over to the next project.

(in reply to Keston)
Post #: 44
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/22/2014 7:56:23 AM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		OK then you must look at the TERP and the TRC numbers (compare them) as i read this in the manual
TERP = number of scientists to get working in labs ( based on colonies population and development level)
TRC = needed labs who are housing scientists

TRC must exceeds TERP in a certain amount ( but never TRC < TERP ) : a surpluss of labs is better to house scientists, when there number is growing by increasing of the population and developmentlevel of the colonies.
With your labs you must keep on the par with the number of scientists for housing them.

AC = actual output research power ( scientists) By building labs with bonusses ......

Note: build too many labs..is a waste of time and money
TERP => TRC.. TRC must be at least equal or bigger than TERP and if you have used a bonussed lab ...you get extra scientists what speeds up the research

Example 1: using only standard labs
TERP = 1000
TRC = 1200 ( 400 + 400 + 400 = 1200)

AC= 1000

Example 2 : using standard labs + bonussed labs
TERP = 1000
TRC = 1800 ( 1000 + 400 + 400 ) ..1000 is a bonussed lab
AC = ? for this is some math needed

I studied a example file
TERP = 951 K
TRC = (1261K ,1472K, 1472K ) ==> the sum exceeds TERP : 4205> 951 .. 21 stations are build ( why are the bonus stations not depicted in the list ?)
AO = (1900, 2250, 2292) ..how much from this is effective actual output ?
To get a realistic figure you must strive to have TRC > TERP , but here is the ratio 4205/951 =4,42 and 951/4205 =0,226

AO_effective = 0,226 X (1900,2250,2292) = (429, 508, 517) =1454 ..so from 951 to 1454 by bonus labs .. a 50 % increase in research speed
Makes this sense ?

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/22/2014 11:05:39 PM >

(in reply to johanwanderer)
Post #: 45
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 7/23/2014 9:53:03 AM   
janamdo

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/19/2014
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		What ratio to keep between the TERP and TRC .. 1 : 2 ?.. the population of the empire will grow and so the TERP number too.
example TERP = 1000 => TRC = 2000
and
quote:

@ Lonnie : Basically I have an ultra genius scientist, my racial bonus, my government bonus, and my bonuses for scientists researching at special research locations. That gives me a huge multiplier...

can boost the research

< Message edited by janamdo -- 7/23/2014 10:53:54 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 8/4/2014 1:09:07 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

Hm...I'm having trouble downloading the file. Can you double check the link for me Jeeves?


Hmmm... You're right, the link does not work unless logged in to mediafire. Let me see what I can do about that.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

Edit : try this on at :

http://www.mediafire.com/download/dcrioyq57qzhiy1/LCC4U.zip



At the end of the ninth year now, and about to conquer the Wekkarus and Paratis within six months. Is anybody interested in further uploads? Lots of progress in past year...

Lonnie Courtney Clay



_____________________________

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Lonnie Courtney Clay

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Post #: 47
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 8/21/2014 5:17:22 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		Early in the 11th year now. Eight files in a 300 mb zip uploaded to :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/4mdcxp2c8934gn5/LCC4U2.zip

only the games after the last batch were included...

Lonnie Courtney Clay

Edit : I verified the latest saved game is compatible with patch 7 and the extended mod patch at :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ovgu3tttw8lj2o1/DW+Extended+Universe+1.0.3.zip
I ran for two months on "rule in my absence" with no crashes, and my cash balance improved as time passed.

Lonnie Courtney Clay


< Message edited by Jeeves -- 8/21/2014 7:07:41 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 7:41:36 AM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		Early in the 12th year now. A 250Mb upload bring you up to today is at :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/g1wluavgakza52x/LCC4U3.zip

I haven't upgraded my version since the last post. No problems encountered except lots of pirate attacks have caused my warships to launch fighters, and the save game takes about 45 seconds for me now...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Lonnie Courtney Clay

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Post #: 49
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 7:49:58 AM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		My empire summary looks bad except that I get about 6 million per year from selling tech and my civilians get over two million from selling super luxuries :






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 50
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 7:51:09 AM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		My governor just got a nice civilian ship speed promotion :






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Post #: 51
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 7:53:05 AM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		I had high hopes for this leader at the start of the game for the diplomacy and colony ship build speed skills, but am seriously disappointed by the extremely slow speed to get improvement :






Attachment (1)

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Lonnie Courtney Clay

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Post #: 52
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 7:56:29 AM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		Here's the top page of my colony list, conquered the Wekkarrus and Paratis, about to add the Gizurean homeworld, but will let them live so they can research universal hive for me. Then its onwards to the Haakonish and Yor to get enough ships to retire so I can finish researching tech...






Attachment (1)

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Lonnie Courtney Clay

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Post #: 53
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/7/2014 11:53:04 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Jeeves, I assume the next game with be on Extreme Difficulty with the AI Improvement Mod, Expensive Research and with some decent house rules such as:

• No Homeworld Invasions are permitted until the 30 year mark and no use of sneaky fast troop transports
• Diplomacy may not be used to farm cash in any way (i.e. technology trading, selling stations/bases or sanctions/war)
• Intelligence Agents must remain on Counter Intelligence duties
• Recovered ships must be retired
• Debris field ships may not be recovered until they are within my territorial influence
• Ship and Base Design is on Automatic almost always
• Exploration ships must be on Automatic, no micro
• Research is on Automatic (although there is a trick if anyone can pick it)
• Cannot attack the Eruktah Refugees until they reveal themselves as the Shakturi

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 54
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/8/2014 12:59:23 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		You play the game like that if you wish. I do like hard rather than normal difficulty since it gives me much more cash, but I am not going to play very hard or extreme or follow your rules...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 55
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/9/2014 11:59:15 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		No worries UberJeeves, I'll keep trying to convince you to play above training wheel difficulty

Jokes aside I'm interested in what you could do on those settings!

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 56
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/19/2014 5:42:47 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		http://www.mediafire.com/download/e64sla7krf7kieq/LCC4U4.zip

Has the latest progress of my game up to the end of 2011. The last save is just before I declare war on the Lipids and conquer their home system, but I'm going to let them live in the hope that they will build me a regional capital. If you ever wanted to pound some insect butt, that save game is for you!

Lonnie Courtney Clay


_____________________________

Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 57
RE: Anybody interested in a 25 empire extended mod game? - 9/28/2014 1:50:19 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		http://www.mediafire.com/download/bdiqsndstygq3ev/LCC4U5.zip
has the final installment of this game from me. Victory is inevitable at 620416 ready to take Ylt'a home system. The two troop fleets then combine forces and transfer troops to the resupply invader ships for conquest of the Guardian's homeworld. That will double revenue, bringing expenses to a positive balance. There is no inflation and stocks of resources are high enough to last till end game without further mining if you don't want the chore of managing state run mining ships. Just retrofit them to a design of your choice and put them on auto...

Lonnie Courtney Clay


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Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 58
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