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RE: Weapons Balancing

 
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RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/15/2014 6:54:59 PM   
lurchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hewwo

Ha, yeah I know I should be doing some modding myself instead of just moaning about it on the forums, but I'm currently doing a six month stint at tokyo university for my PhD, and I just really can't get myself to spend time behind my laptop when I really should be out exploring weird Japanese things :)

However, I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines!


Japan? Cool, one day I'd like to visit Tokyo myself. Have fun!

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Post #: 91
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/16/2014 2:00:08 AM   
hewwo

 

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Thanks, I'll check that out:)

Yeah the earthquakes are a bit unnerving. Fortunately they're mostly at night so people won't see my cowardly shivers!

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Post #: 92
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/22/2014 11:25:01 AM   
Unforeseen


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Edit: Oops posted in wrong thread :P

< Message edited by Unforeseen -- 7/22/2014 12:27:27 PM >


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Post #: 93
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/22/2014 7:51:32 PM   
Tanaka


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Great stuff Icemania is this being added to your AI improvement mod or will this be a separate mod? Also I agree with needing changes to engine range will this be included as well?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 7/22/2014 8:53:21 PM >


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Post #: 94
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/22/2014 7:52:36 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lurchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: hewwo

So... maybe a bit premature to ask, but how about a hyperdrive/reactor/fuel/etc. balance mod? Locarnus' approach was not really my cup of tea because of all the added techs. I just want the existing options to make a bit more sense (especially reducing the range of the gerax hyperdrive compared to the warp bubbles)


Did you take a look at my slow gamestart mod? It does exactly that, I nerved both range and speed of Gerax and made it more expensive. Since warp bubble is now longer in use it's a bit better than vanilla.

You can find it here: matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3632884




This is great but it is not merged with the AI improvement mod and can't be combined :(

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Post #: 95
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/23/2014 9:19:39 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Great stuff Icemania is this being added to your AI improvement mod or will this be a separate mod? Also I agree with needing changes to engine range will this be included as well?

Yes the conclusions in the OP were applied to the AI Improvement Mod. The testing was done using the optimised designs from the AI Improvement Mod.

Once lurchi and gang deliver a new tech tree in the Research Reloaded Mod, I've volunteered to help out and apply the AI Improvement Mod to it.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 7/23/2014 10:19:56 AM >

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Post #: 96
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/23/2014 12:12:01 PM   
spiralaxis

 

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Question: I don't have the tech tree or galactopedia in front of me, but is there a weapon that's designed to primarily damage shields? If not, it seems like a hole that should be plugged. +50% vs shields, -50% vs armour, very short range and either energy- or space- intensive.

It would allow for specialized shield-buster/hijacking ship with less chance of blowing up your target.

Ionized flak cannon, requires railguns and ion weapons...?

< Message edited by spiralaxis -- 7/23/2014 1:16:44 PM >

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Post #: 97
RE: Weapons Balancing - 7/23/2014 3:58:54 PM   
Icemania


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Probably one for lurchi and team to consider. I do like the idea of having a weapon combo that works well with Assault Pods.

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Post #: 98
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/2/2014 5:39:51 AM   
Icemania


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I'm starting to extend the AI Improvement Mod to Extended.

For those that play routinely with Stinger Beams, Paratis Hammerheads and Wyrm Fighters/Bombers, how do you think they stack up?

As Phaser Lances were buffed 20%, I'm considered a similar change to Stinger Beams.

Since Fighter Bays were increased in capacity from 4 to 6, I'm considered a similar change to the All Dimension Fighter Bay.

Any views on Graviton Beams and Area Gravity Weapons balancing?

For those that are playing the AI Improvement Mod, which uses the changes listed in the OP, what are your views on how they are going?

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Post #: 99
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/2/2014 9:23:31 AM   
Rhikore

 

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Hey Ice, did you ever get around to my earlier queries? Pods/Fighters, etc?
On a side note, I was thinking that it would be awesome to get a Skype/Vent Co-Op Modding server/group going.
Im still getting around to my races, but my complete list of to-dos is a plateful. A Franken-mod if you will.

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Post #: 100
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/2/2014 12:27:40 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore
Would love to see a dichotomy in the Rail research Line, A la Guass Rifle from Battle Tech/Mech Warrior.
In other words, the Shotgun of the Railgun world. Shorter range, Massive Damage over a wide area.
In game-play terms I could see this playing out as a bonus vs Armor. Reactive Armors are weak to force over large areas, due to the arrangement of plates, and overall functionality.
Losing half of your port armor in one shot could be kind of scary..

This is probably an idea for lurchi and Blackstork to consider. My focus is balancing existing weapons for the AI Improvement Mod. I'll help them out later once it's mature to apply the AI Improvement Mod to it. I'm sure they will also require a heap more weapons balance testing given the scope of what they have in mind ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore
The main idea that brought me here was the apparent synergy between Devastator Pulse and Assault Pods, or more so slow-firing high alpha weapons in conjunction with assault pod technologies.
Have you done any testing in this vein?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhikore
Ice, I was thinking about the combination of Missiles, Fighters/Bombers and Assault Pods.
The convergence of individual technologies seems to implicate this strategy.

I have some races like the Mortalen already using Missiles/Fighters/Missile Bombers. This path is fairly research intensive as is, but I can see what you are saying, it's the cheapest alignment in terms of extra Research Cost.

Human players are generally used to outclassing the AI. In the AI Improvement Mod the races are very focused in their specific weapons research areas and designs so any extra effort must have a payoff. If Assault Pods are used they weaken the offensive firepower of the ship. From what I can tell Shield penetration on Assault Pods looks to be a number rather than a percentage, so even at maximum technology it looks extraordinarily low. Assault Pod range and speed are also fairly low. Perhaps some changes are needed to make them worthwhile.

Assault Pod combinations with other weapons is currently problematic due to the significant additional research costs. To make them useful in combination with other weapon types, some of the pre-requisite technology links would need to be broken.

If we did break those links and buff Assault Pods, which races would use them? The Boskara/Shakturi focus on the Shaktur Firestorm which isn't research intensive and are aggressive races so they maybe a good fit, as well as the Keskudon. The Ikkuro were suggested by Tcby.

As a semi-related aside, I had a look at the Ikkuro with a Beam/Assault Pod/Tractor Beam combination. Tractor Beams should be avoided by the AI as they sometimes help the enemy, or better yet we get the option to set Tractor Beam tactics in-game and in the templates.

I was hoping some others would do some Battle Arena style testing of other strategies, but unfortunately that hasn't happened.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/2/2014 1:39:09 PM >

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Post #: 101
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/2/2014 9:03:21 PM   
Rhikore

 

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Ice, I can hear the frustration/weariness, and just wanted to say, thank you for your efforts.
Id be glad to help you.. the easiest way for me to help you is to actually speak. That way we could get in game, in editor, and discuss design balance philosophy, and quickly and efficiently relay information and results.

Regarding AI Weapons Research pathing, I fear that if implemented too rigidly, that we will dramatically reduce the fun, impetus and efficacy of Hybridizing/"Tri"bridizing for the Human player.
This effectively forces the human player to select a singular weapons research focus.
For those that arent strict Min-Maxers, this would be quite restricting, emotionally, thematically, and potentially spoil the joy of experimenting altogether.

However this could open another can of worms, in regards to balance of Singular Focus Vs the Synergistic effects of Hybridizing.

Regarding AI racial affinity for assault/boarding tech:
Any race that is generally Belligerent, Competitive, Aggressive, Predisposed to Thievery, and/or Technologically Average or Inferior.

< Message edited by Rhikore -- 8/2/2014 10:34:22 PM >

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Post #: 102
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 3:52:04 AM   
Icemania


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The idea with the AI Improvement Mod is to do everything I can to help the AI compete. The outcome of singular v hybridizing is a function of the game design. You'll see a much wider variety of weapons in-game in the AI Improvement Mod. I am also keen on having more hybrids, but so long as they don't put the AI at a disadvantage.

The hybrids in the Mod at the moment are:
(a) All Fighter focused races i.e. with Missiles or Torpedoes as they are required to be researched to an extent anyway.
(b) Some of the Insect races have Bombardment weapons, which when used aggressively by the AI can be lethal to enemy races.
(c) Gravitic races uses a Graviton Beam / Area Gravity weapon combination

I would definitely like to find a way to get Assault Pods into the Mod. At the moment I'm focused on applying the AI Improvement Mod to Extended, so if anybody is interested is doing some Battle Arena testing while I'm doing that, it would be very welcome. Making changes to the available Assault Pod characteristics is very easy to Mod via components.txt and research.txt.

I'd also like to see the developer open up Tractor Beam tactics so they can be used as a hybrid option. As it stands I consider Tractor Beams broken tactically.

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Post #: 103
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 7:39:31 AM   
Blackstork


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icemania, as i wrote in beyond thread - i will outline new races for beyond/our future megamod pack - there is races that cover unused weapons (including laaran which specialises on assault pods)
i will send info with tech\weapon coverage for new 5 races, i hope they cover all unused niches, and we can polish and adjust them together, i will hapilly do this with you

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Post #: 104
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 10:05:34 AM   
Icemania


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That's fine but we'll need to make sure each combination is competitive when the AI Improvement Mod is applied to mega-mod combo. I've posted to lurchi also in Research Reloaded to consider this.


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Post #: 105
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 10:40:15 AM   
lurchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spiralaxis

Question: I don't have the tech tree or galactopedia in front of me, but is there a weapon that's designed to primarily damage shields? If not, it seems like a hole that should be plugged. +50% vs shields, -50% vs armour, very short range and either energy- or space- intensive.

It would allow for specialized shield-buster/hijacking ship with less chance of blowing up your target.

Ionized flak cannon, requires railguns and ion weapons...?


First the good news:
I already tinkered around to create shield braker weapons and will include those in Research Reloaded.

Now the bad news:
I used a kludge, but that's the only way to do it right now. The problem is that bonus/malus is hardcoded and can't be modded freely. That's especially bad for hybrid weapons - I can't create those until the base game is updated according to my wishlist.

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Post #: 106
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 10:44:12 AM   
lurchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Since Fighter Bays were increased in capacity from 4 to 6, I'm considered a


In Research Reloaded the fighter bays start with 4 and get three upgrades finally having 7. How do you like that?

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Post #: 107
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 11:51:29 AM   
PsyKoSnake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lurchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Since Fighter Bays were increased in capacity from 4 to 6, I'm considered a


In Research Reloaded the fighter bays start with 4 and get three upgrades finally having 7. How do you like that?



All depend on the boost of the other weapon. If all the other weapon are 2x more powerfull for exemple, I think would need 12 fighters to stay in balance with the test Icemania did.

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Post #: 108
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 1:10:26 PM   
Rhikore

 

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Lurchi Ello, been meaning to drop in to the other mod threads and say Hello and Thanks for your efforts.
Ive considered doing a good amount of modding myself, yet it seems, in pieces, others are doing all the various things Ive been wanting to.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it would be awesome if we could get a vent server, or skype group going. (For the sake of Competently and Comprehensively creating the Mega-mod)
I will probably Mod some races, and implement them personally.
However, I am working on Balance Modding, specifically Vanilla Races/Personal Unique Additions, as well as all government types.
Furthermore, I want to open all government types to all races.
The current implementation of Diplomacy(unmodded) seems very heavy-handed.
I mean penalties for simply being bigger than your neighbors, invading Independent colonies, and having rare luxury resources, which the galaxy instantly is aware of, somehow, seems a bit ridiculous.
Additionally, why arent there any intrinsic scaling bonuses to counter these? For instant an incremental bonus for peaceful behavior.
I guess I just feel that another race should only become angry/furious with you if youre actively instigating those feelings.

In closing, just thought Id say hello, and offer to help how I can. (@Ice/Lurchi)


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Post #: 109
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 2:10:12 PM   
Icemania


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Rhikore, agree it could be good to get a group together, some help with coordination across Modders would be appreciated.

If you are interested in balance modding races, I'm sure Blackstork could use some help for the new races he is working on. And possibly also a closer look at balancing races in Extended.

I would appreciate testers for the AI Improvement Mod, I've just put up an Alpha release integrated with Extended.

Another option would be some Battle Arena testing for areas that interest you like Assault Pods combined with balance changes. We'll need to do a lot of that to help lurchi once his Mod is mature.

Unfortunately there is no way to mod Diplomacy, if there was, it would be have been my first target in the AI Improvement Mod!





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Post #: 110
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/3/2014 5:10:40 PM   
Blackstork


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Yes, indeed , i could have some co-modders for Beyond project, which is part of whole megamod idea thingy - together with AI mod, my Immersion mod, and Lurchi's research mod.
The thing that Beyond is not about just adding races , its 75% about adding another dimension and tool to diversify races - race-specific characters, where race of character will matter, and will influence game (positively or negatively) as primary or secondary population. Its critical modifier to race performance, and huge gain for immersion, roleplay, personnel minigame and epic feel. That is very ambitions project which add ALOT of additional variables on the racial balance table. Its quite complex but if you want to participate in it - i will be more than glad to have co-modders. Characters are about 50% of balance, if you do it right, and thats a huge forest to explore and find the mooshrooms. It can make Atuuks and Quameno balanced without even touching their primary racial features., it can add alot of variety and sence, where different races use not 1 pool of skills/traits, but each race - its own. Also there are 4 spots for more races left. (they will be at end of queue tho, but we always add more till we get 50)

As on topic - i try to use "unused" areas of weaponry with current planned Beyond pool races.
also lurchi doing something huge, so, perhaps we should see it before we rebalance it for integral project

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 8/3/2014 6:16:35 PM >


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Post #: 111
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/5/2014 2:34:36 AM   
silentdeth

 

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Some questions:
Is the reactive armor effect applied before or after the 50% damage to armor penalty of rail guns?
How does the 50% damage to armor penalty stack with damage control?
In what order are the effects of damage control, damage to armor penalty, and reactive armor applied?

< Message edited by silentdeth -- 8/5/2014 3:37:48 AM >

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Post #: 112
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/5/2014 4:49:19 AM   
Aeson

 

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Try reading the main post of this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3600917

That post sums up the official statements on how armor works, and most of the empirical studies of armor which were done by forum members are tainted by having been performed prior to a bug fix that corrected an issue which allowed weapons to bypass armor when they should not have done so.

Specifically as regards damage control, armor penalties, and reactive armor: damage control only impacts the damage you receive after your armor is broken/penetrated. I would assume, but do not know for certain, that the anti-armor penalties are applied in the same manner as the anti-armor bonuses of phasers, so a weapon with a 50% penalty versus armor would be trying to penetrate armor plate at twice the reactive rating as a weapon which has no anti-armor bonuses or penalties. Also, because damage control's damage reduction bonus applies only to internal components, it does not stack with armor penetration penalties, as it does not come into play at the time when armor penetration penalties do - damage control is stated to not affect armor, and any bonus or especially penalty against armor is unlikely to carry over into damage to the non-armor components.

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RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/6/2014 9:50:14 PM   
Shogouki


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Rhikore, agree it could be good to get a group together, some help with coordination across Modders would be appreciated.

If you are interested in balance modding races, I'm sure Blackstork could use some help for the new races he is working on. And possibly also a closer look at balancing races in Extended.

I would appreciate testers for the AI Improvement Mod, I've just put up an Alpha release integrated with Extended.

Another option would be some Battle Arena testing for areas that interest you like Assault Pods combined with balance changes. We'll need to do a lot of that to help lurchi once his Mod is mature.

Unfortunately there is no way to mod Diplomacy, if there was, it would be have been my first target in the AI Improvement Mod!







Is diplomacy hard coded with no hope of ever being made mod-able?

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Post #: 114
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/8/2014 1:35:17 PM   
Icemania


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There is always hope.

I was very happy when Matrix implemented my request to include AI Research Build Orders.

Not that I timed my request so it was shortly after release and as visible as practically possible on both forums or anything ...


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Post #: 115
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/16/2014 8:22:13 AM   
Shogouki


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Hehe well I'll continue to hope as well.

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RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/17/2014 3:52:35 PM   
scbfromnc

 

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Just finished my first game last night so consider the source in these comments...

Put together my own spreadsheet (attached) to help me understand weapons better and it seems to support many of the comments already made in this topic. I looked at damage by type of engagement (point blank, all weapons, and stand-off). For point blank I assumed a distance of 50 -- completely arbitrary. I assume ships try to fire at 0, but maneuvering of the target probably puts it in the 0 to 100 range unless thrusters are not evenly matched. For all weapons I used a distance of 80% of maximum range.

In the attached spreadsheet I highlighted what I considered (really based on Aeson's input) the optimum range for each weapon. This assumes a single weapon type per ship (I build ships with single weapons, then combine in fleets to have both archers and swordsmen -- and therefore optimize range for each weapon). While I included data on all weapons, I've stayed away from drawing conclusions for specialty weapons like graviton, etc).

In looking at dps at optimum range, a few things stand out:
(1) Blasters and Titan Beams show a nice progression of dps
(2) Phaser Lances are really weaker than Phaser Cannons due to high Fire Rate (really fire interval). Should you perhaps consider lowering the Fire Rate instead of increasing damage?
(3) Similarly, Heavy and Massive Rail Guns are weaker than earlier versions. Perhaps a decrease in Fire Rate to address this?
(4) Torps show a nice progression in dps, although the first level of Plasma Thunderbolt is weaker than the third level of Shockwaves. Perhaps consider decreasing Fire Rate of Plasma (first level) to be in line with the next two levels?
(5) Missiles show a nice progression in dps, but advance missiles are quite weak. Could increase dps to low double digits by increasing the damage value or decreasing Rire Rate, though what I'd really like to see is additional missile types added to the game.


Attachment (1)

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RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/17/2014 6:20:09 PM   
Aeson

 

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One of the things that you should consider in your spreadsheet isn't so much the total DPS of a given weapon, but rather how much DPS it can give you for the size you spent on it (i.e. divide the DPS of the weapon by the size of the weapon).

quote:

(4) Torps show a nice progression in dps, although the first level of Plasma Thunderbolt is weaker than the third level of Shockwaves. Perhaps consider decreasing Fire Rate of Plasma (first level) to be in line with the next two levels?

It's true that the Plasma Thunderbolt I isn't, strictly speaking, superior to the Shockwave Torpedo III (or, for that matter, the Velocity Shard III); the same applies to the Titan Beam I when compared with the Impact Assault Blaster III and the Shatterforce Laser III. However, the Plasma Thunderbolt I is not an upgrade of the Shockwave Torpedo III and Velocity Shard III, it's an alternative to the Shockwave Torpedo III and Velocity Shard III, and represents a kind of balance between those two weapons. Also, unlike either of these weapons, the Plasma Thunderbolt I can be further upgraded and is not an immediate dead-end, as far as research goes. If you decide to continue upgrading your torpedo ships, picking up Shockwave IIIs or Velocity Shard IIIs instead of Thunderbolt Is may be easier in the short-term (since if you were only upgrading one side of the torpedo tree picking up the second upgrade means you research a single level 7 tech rather than one each of level 4, 5, and 6 techs), but if you intend to keep using your ships, you'll eventually need to pick up the Plasma Thunderbolt anyways, and a level 7 tech that doesn't lead anywhere is kind of wasted research when you factor in that level 7 techs are also much more expensive than level 4, 5, or 6 techs. In fact, if the research cost at each tech level goes up by more than about 84% of the previous level's cost, that one level 7 tech would be more expensive than the three lower-level techs.

Beyond that, looking at the Plasma Thunderbolt I and comparing it to the Shockwave Torpedo III, the Plasma Thunderbolt I appears to be slightly superior, in terms of raw DPS and DPS per unit size, over most of the shared range band (the Plasma Thunderbolt is superior out to 500 range; from 500 range to 650 range, it's slightly inferior, and from 650 range to 690 range it becomes superior once again since the Shockwave Torpedo cannot shoot at those ranges, while beyond 690 range both weapons are about equal since neither can be used).

quote:

(2) Phaser Lances are really weaker than Phaser Cannons due to high Fire Rate (really fire interval). Should you perhaps consider lowering the Fire Rate instead of increasing damage?

Phaser Lances also have at least 50% more range than an equivalent tech level Phaser Cannon, and a fully upgraded Phaser Lance has just shy of double the range of a fully upgraded Phaser Cannon; Phaser Lances also always have a considerably higher per-shot damage than any level of Phaser Cannon, and sometimes that can be more important than raw DPS. DPS, whether it be on a per-gun or a per-unit size basis, is not the only factor to consider when balancing weapons.

quote:

(5) Missiles show a nice progression in dps, but advance missiles are quite weak. Could increase dps to low double digits by increasing the damage value or decreasing Rire Rate, though what I'd really like to see is additional missile types added to the game.

One of the advantages of missiles over torpedoes and blasters is that there's only six techs that need to be researched in order to have a fully-upgraded top-of-the-tech-tree weapon. Torpedoes and Blasters each require 9 techs (8 for blasters if you start with the basic Maxos Blaster), which is a significant increase in the minimum required research to obtain that top-of-the-tree weapon.

quote:

(3) Similarly, Heavy and Massive Rail Guns are weaker than earlier versions. Perhaps a decrease in Fire Rate to address this?

In all honesty, basic railguns are just not that good once the engagement ranges start climbing and decent armor comes into play. Even the heavy and massive railguns don't have particularly competitive ranges compared to similar-tech weapons, but the basic railguns are incredibly outranged once real mid-game weapons start coming into play, and are large enough that you may have difficulties securing yourself a railgun ship sufficiently faster than a similar blaster design to make it reasonable to close the range. Massive Railguns do have a slight bonus to help counterbalance this in that they are bombardment weapons, unlike all other ship-to-ship weapons in the game aside from the Shaktur FireStorm (which is a significantly better weapon, but which is also much harder to get unless you happen to be playing Boskara).

I will however say that railguns are, in a way, good for tactics involving swarms of small, fast ships. Pound for pound, railguns are generally worse than other weapons anyways, except in the early game (and even then, they have a fairly significant range disadvantage, which, if you keep using the basic railguns to the end of the game, only gets worse as time goes on), so you might as well go in for easily-replaced vessels that close quickly and get off a few shots rather than the durable big slow(ish) ships that other weapon types tend to favor. Build a bunch of little ships, send them swarming at an enemy ship, and you might take a few losses, but the shots that get through the shields have a chance to cause enough harm to force your opponent's ship to retreat, and that may be all you need out of the engagement. It's still better to kill the opponent, but good luck doing that with railguns in a 'fair' fight, and also remember that this is of more value on the defensive than on the offensive - no matter how badly you damage that size-3000 spaceport or the size-800 defensive bases surrounding it, it's never going to run away. Also remember that getting into railgun range of your opponent puts your ship into range of every other weapon in the game (except possibly a less-developed railgun), which would likely cause some survivability issues when trying to take down a station (of course, if you're intending to fight a station at close range, you might want to have a specialized design just for that rather than using the cheap little gunboats to engage a target that can destroy one of them per volley or something like that).

(in reply to scbfromnc)
Post #: 118
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/18/2014 2:33:48 AM   
scbfromnc

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/23/2007
Status: offline
All valid points. I thought about including size instead of DPS, but frankly I'm a little dense and have trouble interpreting damage per second per size in real terms. But I have thought about how gun size and energy requirements fit in and really both of these come down to the effect on size and how many guns you can fit on a ship. Higher energy requirements mean more engines -- which adds to the space requirement. So in the updated spreadsheet, attached, I added a couple of columns. For illustration purposes I just picked a typical mid-game engine -- the Quantum Reactor II (size 18, 145 energy output) and calculated (1) how many guns one reactor would support and (2) the total space requirement (i.e. gun + reactor). I realize in practice you can't have a fraction of an engine but this is for illustration purposes and would be more relevant to larger ships than small ones.

So you can see in the attached table that the total space required (G+R=Gun +Reactor) for the best weapon in each series is:
-Titan III = 10
-Phaser Lance III = 16
-Massive Rail Gun II = 20
-Plasma Thunderbolt III = 20
-Assault Missile III = 16

So beams/blasters come out pretty good, but all the others aren't significantly different from each other (only 25% difference).

The missile tech research advantage really isn't as great as it appears. If you add up the research points needed to get to the ultimate weapon, it looks like this:
-Titan III = 16,680 research points
-Phaser Lance III = 18,120 rp
-Massive Rail Gun = 9,840 rp
-Plasma Thunderbolt III = 16,680 rp
-Assault Missile III = 15,720 rp

So I'm not looking to make all of these equal. Someone else made the point of a rock/paper/scissors design and there's a pretty good basis for that in the game right now. But with the weapons as they currently stand, I wonder if there's any reason to consider anything except beams and torps. A lot of changes would upset the game balance, so I was only looking for some minor tweaks that might make me consider missiles or phasers. I've pretty much given up on rail guns, however. Too many disadvantages and not enough advantages. By the way, can anyone quantify "partially bypasses shields"?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by scbfromnc -- 8/18/2014 3:40:04 AM >

(in reply to Aeson)
Post #: 119
RE: Weapons Balancing - 8/18/2014 11:46:55 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
I would recommend caution with spreadsheet analysis as there are various factors that are not so easy to account for. Try in-game testing instead as per many of the posts in this thread. For example Missiles surprised me with how well they performed as I initially had similar comments. The changes from that testing (per the OP) are part of the AI Improvement Mod. You'll find the AI's use a mix of weapon types rather than focusing excessively on Beams and Torpedoes.

(in reply to scbfromnc)
Post #: 120
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