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Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency

 
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Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 10:33:32 AM   
Helderik

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 6/25/2014
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I am new to this game and have enjoyed every hour spend so far. I have been playing the community scenario Carribean Crisis: the showdown 2012 to learn and enjoy the game.

In this scenario, I try to save SA missiles on my frigates by engaging the SU30 Flanker Gs with my Netherlands F-16 MLU aircraft, armed with AIM-120B AMRAAM missiles. However, I have trouble to shoot down the Flankers with my F-16s. I am looking for ideas and tips to increase my efficiency in shooting them down.

So far, I have tried the following...

- outnumbering the enemy: I use groups of 4x F-16 to engage a single SU30 when possible
- shooting many missiles: I use shift-F1 to engage each target with 6 (!!!) missiles
- I have all frigates behind the F-16s with OECM turned on to jam the Flankers
- F-16s have radars turned on

However, even when shooting 6 missiles at each flanker, often I miss the flankers and they turn around and disappear. When the Flankers return fire, they typically hit me at least as often. What is the problem here? Are the F-16s and AIM-120B missiles just crappy or am I missing other ways to increase my success rate?


Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,


Erik
Post #: 1
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 11:02:42 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Problem is that SU-30 Flanker is quite advanced plane with good defensive properties (ECM & agility). It's more than match for F-16 and almost equal to last versions of F-16. Another problem is that AIM-120B is not that good compared to later C and especially D-models.

Your tactics seems sound, maybe also turn on DECM pods/systems on F-16s from start of engagement, instead of relying AI to do that during missile evasion. Might give few secs before Flankers get lock. I don't remember if Flankers in that scenario have AA-12 Adders, which is Russian response to AMRAAM. If not, SU-30s need to maintain radar lock (AA-10s are mainly SAHR missiles), which either means they are severely hampered with evasion when shot at. So, they either are less agile or lose missile guidance. So if SU-30 shoots your planes, respond immediately with AMRAAM and start your own evasion. If they shoot AA-12 or long-range IR version of AA-10..good luck (latter is easier to evade, tho).

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 7/11/2014 12:02:32 PM >

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RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 11:06:29 AM   
Tomcat84

 

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		Are you shooting at max range? If so you will get a significant range penalty on your PH% so wait till you are closer. If you are already doing that then yeah, Flankers are pretty capable.

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RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 11:14:49 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Hello and welcome!

Your tactics are sensible, and I see some good suggestions added already. One other thing you can try is to deny a "pitched" air battle with the Su-30s (easier said than done if you're tied to protecting a specific region or asset, of course) and instead ambush them on their way in or out. For example you could try driving by run-around a pair of F-16s with fuel tanks and AMRAAMs on the "transit lane" between the Flanker line and their base of origin and engage them there. If they're on their way to the "line", you can possibly cut down their numbers and thus tilt the "frontline balance" in your favor. If they're on the return leg they're probably low on fuel and possibly out of ammo so you have a better chance at taking them down than at the frontline.

Have to agree though that modern Flanker variants are a very capable asset. No wonder the USAF wanted more F-22s than they eventually got.

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Post #: 4
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 11:17:53 AM   
Helderik

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 6/25/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks guys!

I'll try waiting a bit longer and manually switch on the ECM pods. I guess the Flankers are just a bit too tough for my F16s.

I just thought about trying to prevent me from battling the ~20 flankers in the scenario by taking out the runways or access points in an early strike. If I can prevent them from getting airborne, I only have to battle a few of them which are airborn at the moment of the strike. I have a few F-16s with JDAM and LGB bombs. I am not sure if this could work, but I will at least learn something new!

The scenario briefing even mentions something about only flying above the mainland if critical to achieve mission success... This might be a hint I overlooked...

Erik

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Post #: 5
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 11:22:33 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Excellent idea too. The runway access points are particularly vulnerable.

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Post #: 6
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/11/2014 7:06:17 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Can you upload a savegame of this? And/or missile endgame calcs?

Assume you're using 1.04?

Thanks!

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Post #: 7
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/13/2014 10:17:34 AM   
Helderik

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 6/25/2014
Status: offline 		Hi Emsoy,

Version is build 553. Below, I pasted some endgame calcs, don't have winzip installed at this notebook to post a savegame. Perhaps this is sufficient... It appears the hit probability of the missile is only 14%. Combined with defensive jammer and decoy probability of 25% and 15% respectively, this leaves a small chance to hit. Also, now I saw the distance penalty of 50%, which was mentioned by previous replies.

Everything seems to work fine...(??)


Thanks!


Erik


9:06:11 - Weapon: AIM-120B AMRAAM #1277 is attacking Black Cat #1 with a base PH of 90%. PH adjusted for distance: 50%. Black Cat #1 is maneuvering with agility: 3,6 (Nominal: 4,5 - Proficiency: Regular)(-36%). Final PH: 14%. Die Roll: 23 - MISS
9:06:11 - Defensive jammer (L-203IE Gardeniya-1FUE; Tech: Early 2000s) on Black Cat #1 is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker(Tech: Early 1990s)(Of: AIM-120B AMRAAM #1277). Final probability: 25%. Die Roll: 57 - FAILURE
9:06:11 - Decoy (Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]; Tech: N/A) from Black Cat #1 is attempting to seduce sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Early 1990s)(Guiding weapon: AIM-120B AMRAAM #1277). Final probability: 15%. Die Roll: 57 - FAILURE

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Post #: 8
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/13/2014 11:04:43 AM   
Tomcat84

 

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		The first sentence has the thing in it that I was getting at:

Weapon: AIM-120B AMRAAM #1277 is attacking Black Cat #1 with a base PH of 90%. PH adjusted for distance: 50%

You are shooting your AIM-120s at the very max range, this reduces their PH a lot as you can see (by 40%). If you wait until they are at about 70% of the range ring before shooting you will end up with a PH around 55% which will give you more of a chance.



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Post #: 9
RE: Help requested to increase AMRAAM efficiency - 7/14/2014 7:39:56 AM   
Pergite!

 

Posts: 546
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: The temperate climate zone
Status: offline 		Reminds me on these old threads for another military simulator which basically handles the same question:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100117

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100080

Shifting through it could probably be useful in terms of a popular science explanation on how BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air-combat and modern missiles work

< Message edited by Pergite! -- 7/14/2014 8:43:26 AM >

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