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Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 10:16:03 PM

b_ace

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I'm loving this game so far, but I think there are a few things that need balancing. Maybe this thread can be a thread for people to list what they think are imbalanced aspects of the game.

Races:

Quameno: The tech bonuses they get from their racial characteristics, government type, and ruler are just over the top. They are incredibly OP.

Gizurean: Over time, their permanent leader becomes a god. Probably not as OP as the Quameno, but they are up there.

Ketarov: The AI doesn't seem to utilize their bonuses very well; they seem pretty underpowered.

Atuuk: Seem to be a bit underpowered compared to other races.

Governments: Some types seem to be far, far superior to others. I can't ever imagine having a military dictatorship or corporate nationalist government. I think the autocratic governments all need to be overhauled. Democracy and Technocracy are clearly the best two types.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 10:37:13 PM

Keston

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Some forms of government are in fact far, far superior to others. Corporate nationalism captures a range of degenerate forms of governments and military dictatorships are a generally externally pacific and internally self-corrosive form of government arising in reaction to the erosion of the power of an established elite in a developing democratic or republican episode. (As this applies to humans, of course.)

This being a single-player game with lots of handicapping settings, each player can already balance the experience to taste - there is no need for procrustean tinkering with the experience of others.

(in reply to b_ace)

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 11:02:31 PM

Retreat1970

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I disagree with the Quameno being overpowered. Their 14% growth rate is a problem.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 11:13:06 PM

b_ace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

Some forms of government are in fact far, far superior to others. Corporate nationalism captures a range of degenerate forms of governments and military dictatorships are a generally externally pacific and internally self-corrosive form of government arising in reaction to the erosion of the power of an established elite in a developing democratic or republican episode. (As this applies to humans, of course.)

This being a single-player game with lots of handicapping settings, each player can already balance the experience to taste - there is no need for procrustean tinkering with the experience of others.

I'll try to talk like a normal person here.

Can't say I agree with your analysis of the pros and cons of different government types vis a vis real life. While there is no monolithic "corporate nationlist" government type in the real world, many states have used certain aspects of corporate nationalism to great success (Japan and (for a while) Brazil, for example). And as for military dictatorships being externally pacific? I'll go ahead and call that false when compared to other government types. As for them arising during periods of erosion of the power of the elite and in periods of transition? True, but so is it for just about all shifts in forms of rule.

There are a number of real-world examples of autocratic regimes doing quite well in the real world, and probably far better than their more democratic counterparts would. This will require a discussion on what the economic and political precursors are of successfully implementing more liberal forms of government, but I'd rather avoid that here.

And I don't think providing balance to the government types is in any way procrustean at all; in fact, I think the way they are currently set is far quite arbitrary and unrealistic, and that a rebalance would actually make them less so.

But, back to the point, this is a game, it would be nice to have a bit better of a variety to choose from. Because right now, they are far too simplistic and provide few good options.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 11:13:35 PM

Keston

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And perhaps rapidly-growing hordes of joyful Atuuk taxpayers swarming over the galaxy on a cash tsunami can be their own secret weapon if wielded by a player.

edit:
@b_ace: If you are advocating an interesting variety of species and even governments, that is quite a different thing from "balancing." I think Extended helps a lot in that respect, including new government forms. The substantive aspects of the original races were left carefully untouched.

For useful research and analysis regarding military dictatorships, see, e.g, A Theory of Military Dictatorships (NBER Working Paper No. 13915) - which would suggest to a reader that they should be represented as differently in DW from how they are. In particular, the inherent contradictions involved in the army being the state rather than its defender and lack of legitimacy make this a tenuous form of government likely to evolve into something else. In game, depending on the circumstances and the species, it might tend to finding legitimacy in a powerful leader or in a representative government process.

CN is not a very effective category of government but does describe an economic process. The political description of CN is just gloss for a category that must, for lack of other in-game options, cover a broad range of regimes of corporatist or other statist character as they move through that stage in their life cycle, whatever their nominal political forms. A great many current countries have some CN symptoms. I think CN in game should probably fit as a temporizing response to try to stave off the consequences of a crisis, with the expectation of changing into some other form of government fairly quickly (which might be a transitional military dictatorship, for that matter).

< Message edited by Keston -- 7/16/2014 1:14:41 AM >

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 11:16:38 PM

b_ace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

I disagree with the Quameno being overpowered. Their 14% growth rate is a problem.

Very true. But (and correct me if I'm wrong) their total tech bonus is 110% (after racial, government, and leader bonuses are added up). That provides a massive leg-up over the other races, especially in a pre-warp start.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/15/2014 11:18:15 PM

Retreat1970

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

And perhaps rapidly-growing hordes of joyful Atuuk taxpayers swarming over the galaxy on a cash tsunami can be their own secret weapon if wielded by a player.

Heh...works for me. But any race wielded by a player wins with any government.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/16/2014 1:44:47 AM

Nanaki

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OP is suprisingly on the mark. As for Ketarov, I think Ketarov are fine, Intelligence missions are incredibly powerful if you know how to use them and the Ketarov are absolutly amazing at it, unfortunately the AI is really, really bad at managing intelligence agents. I would rather fix the AI than buff the Ketarov.

I have been working on a mod that would address the worst balance issues, as well as make some of the less interesting races more interesting to play. I also did the same with governments. The only thing is that there are a number of races that I have not really figured out what to do with yet.

Here is the full WIP Changelog. I could release as is if there is enough interest:
Races
Race Families:
- Renamed Rodent to Mammalian
Ackdarian:
- No Change
Atuuk:
- Added 70% Troop maintenance savings
- Changed native to Marshy Swamp
Boskara:
- No change
Dhayut:
- Added 15% Research
Gizurean:
- Removed permanent leaders
- Increased Admiral chance to 130%
- Replaced 'Keep Leader Alive' VC with 'Hold Homeworld' VC
- Changed Starting character to Colony Governor
Haakonish:
- No Change
Human:
- Added 10% Trade
- Added 10% Tourism
Ikkuro:
- No change
Ketarov:
- No change
Kiadian:
- Added 20% Lower War Weariness
- Added 10% Military Ship Size
Mortalen:
- No change
Naxxilian:
- No change
Quameno:
- Reduced Research by 10%
Securan:
- Added 10% Espionage
- Added 1 Extra Intelligence Agent
Shandar:
- Permanent leaders added
- Added 'Keep Leader Alive' VC
- Changed starting character to Faction Leader
Sluken:
- No change
Teekan:
- Removed military ship size penalty
Ugnari:
- Added 15% Espionage
- Added 1 Extra Intelligence Agent
- Added 10% Colony Income
- Removed 20% Resource Extraction
Wekkarus:
- No change
Zenox:
- Permanent leaders added
- Replaced 'Fewest troops lost' VC with 'Keep Leader Alive' VC
- Changed starting character to Faction Leader

Governments
All Governments:
- Research moved 10% towards the center (25% > 15%, -25% > -15%)
- Approval ratings inverted between Autocracies and Democracies
Republic:
- Research decreased by 20% (25%>5%)
Technocracy:
- Research decreased by 25% (50%>25%)
Utopian Paradise:
- War Weariness decreased by 25%
- Maintenance costs decreased by 25%
Corporate Nationalism:
- Temporarily disabled until AI bugs are fixed

Research
- Superweapons now stealable by espionage

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

I disagree with the Quameno being overpowered. Their 14% growth rate is a problem.

The problem is independants. Quameno's 110% tech rate (Ultra Genius Researcher + 40% Racial + 50% Technocracy) means it will get into space long before any other race. After all, Zenox can only muster 50%, Kaidian 45%, Humans 40%, Ackdarians 35%, and everyone else 25%. Quameno will into space long before any other race intos space, and once they do they will be able to claim a disproportionate amount of independants, ruins, and derelicts, which will give them a very, very large, potentially unsurmountable (depending on what the Quameno find) early game advantage.

Even late game, under perfect circumstances (Ultra Genius + Way of the Ancients), Kaidian can only muster 90%, Humans 85%, Ackdarians 80%, and Zenox 70%.

quote:

Some forms of government are in fact far, far superior to others.

While this can be disputed, it is not the time or place to do so. This is a game and as a result gameplay always takes precedence above realism, and this is ultimately a gameplay issue. Especially since, functionally, all governments presently do is weaken the AI because it is too stupid to pick the 'correct' government.

I went with interverting the approval rating. Generally, the reasoning is that democratic governments are not able to get away with diverting as large a % of GDP to military affairs as autocratic, and thus the lower approval rating represents the need for lower taxes. Autocrats on the other hand can divert far greater % of GDP into the state coffers, and presumably use this to construct a larger military.

I also substantially reduced the % research bonuses and penalties from all government. Standard governments will only vary between 15% and -15%, Technocracy only gets 25%, Way of Darkness only 20%, and Way of the Ancients only 40%.

< Message edited by Nanaki -- 7/16/2014 2:46:13 AM >

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/16/2014 3:03:20 AM

Retreat1970

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quote:

The problem is independants. Quameno's 110% tech rate (Ultra Genius Researcher + 40% Racial + 50% Technocracy) means it will get into space long before any other race. After all, Zenox can only muster 50%, Kaidian 45%, Humans 40%, Ackdarians 35%, and everyone else 25%. Quameno will into space long before any other race intos space, and once they do they will be able to claim a disproportionate amount of independants, ruins, and derelicts, which will give them a very, very large, potentially unsurmountable (depending on what the Quameno find) early game advantage.

This is true for a player. AI quameno overexpands, taxes colonies to death, and doesn't grow. No money is a huge problem no matter how advanced you are.

I like your ideas for changes. Looking forward to trying them out.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/16/2014 7:55:02 AM

Tcby

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I'd also be interested in trialing these changes.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/25/2014 4:15:36 AM

CaptainZero

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I am an old Space Empires player; after a while all the races seemed to be the same. The only real differences were how the ships looked. Sure, some +/- to different values and maybe a unique tech but in the end each race played the same. I have been very impressed with DW in that each race not only looks different, but plays different too.

I remember a game last month where the Quameno were quite strong and on one of my flanks. They had quite a few worlds, a tech lead on all the other empires, and what appeared to be a good fleet. When war finally broke out I thought for sure it was going to be a bloody stalemate, but to my surprise the Quameno were unable to replace losses as quickly as me (due to less $$$ is reserve?) and almost all of thier worlds were not Quemeno majorities (due to the their low reproduction rate). This allowed me to invade and hold their worlds much easier.

As for the Atuuk being overpowered, I was really surprised when in my last game they flew through another empire to beat the crud out of the Mortaleans.

If you want to try to balance everyone out, then godspeed to you. However, in a single player games I prefer asymmetry.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/25/2014 5:31:13 AM

Vardis

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I've been playing with the Quameno, but Technocracy isn't as good as it seems IMO. More often than not in my games, my starting scientist replaces the leader at some point, which can cripple my research. I've started using Democracy not only because there's no risk of losing a ultra-genius scientist with +50% energy research, but you can pretty much shuffle through leaders until you get a good one with a pop bonus to help with the low growth rate.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/25/2014 10:15:29 AM

Nanaki

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Even if the starting ultra genius is replaced (which is fairly low, Technocracy has one of the lowest leader replacement rates, you still have a head-and-shoulders advantage over any other race.

So far, my balance mod has produced interesting results. The Quameno and Gizureans are, despite being nerfed, two of the strongest powers, but there is no longer a gulf between the strongest power and most other powers. There are a half dozen 'major powers' and another half dozen 'medium powers', and even out of the rest they tend to have around 2-6 colonies. Only two races have remained stuck on their homeworld, and this could easily be attributed to bad starting position/bad luck.

One of the suprising performers have been the Naxxilian, whom, starting out as a 2-3 colony minor, managed to knock the Quameno flat on the floor and seize a dozen colonies.

The Atuuk are suprisingly one of the major powers, but very easily attributed to starting position since they started out in a quiet part of the galaxy and allowed to expand. The Kaidian are probably the biggest power, since they started out in a quiet part of the galaxy and found the 'Way of the Ancients' government type, which gives them the highest tech rate in the galaxy.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/25/2014 2:01:18 PM

Unforeseen

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I stand by my opinion that the Atuuk serve only one purpose. Work the salt mines.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 4:10:56 AM

Kilravock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

I stand by my opinion that the Atuuk serve only one purpose. Work the salt mines.

The world needs janitors too. Atuuk are great as happy miners. They are happy to breed and be free, and I am happy for their taxes and mining.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 12:06:12 PM

Nanaki

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I always found Shandar to be better at that role, and they do not have the construction penalty, and they can colonize volcanic worlds, and spaceports built over their planets get a 20% armor bonus...

In my mod Atuuk at least make good cannon fodder.

< Message edited by Nanaki -- 7/26/2014 1:06:31 PM >

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 4:26:35 PM

LoBaron

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I personally think that the world 'balancing' is used much too often and careless in single player games. In the real world some creatures are more successful than others. Big deal.

The exaggerated focus on balancing comes from MMO environments, where every little kid starts to immediately rant about unfair/overpowered/not balanced aspects of the virtual world destined to ruin their gaming experience.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 7/26/2014 6:15:00 PM >

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 7:26:01 PM

DeadlyShoe

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quote:

I personally think that the world 'balancing' is used much too often and careless in single player games. In the real world some creatures are more successful than others. Big deal.

Creating valid choices for the player is fundamental to good gameplay. Balanced options are essential to creating player choice, especially for the large subset of players who are psychologically inclined towards optimizing their play.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 9:40:04 PM

Nanaki

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I did post my mod incase anyone missed it.

quote:

Creating valid choices for the player is fundamental to good gameplay. Balanced options are essential to creating player choice, especially for the large subset of players who are psychologically inclined towards optimizing their play.

Not just that, but also creating a variety of different playstyles and game mechanics that are all equally valid. At the moment Gizureans are the only race with no leader replacement, but at the same time they also have high growth and yearly cycles. It is strange piling all these mechanics onto one race when you have other races with absolutly nothing at all. My goal is to improve balance, not perfect it. Could it be better? Most definatly. But I would rather move in baby steps than great leaps, as giant leaps have a habit of overcorrecting and causing even worse balance issues in the long run.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 10:08:55 PM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

quote:

I personally think that the world 'balancing' is used much too often and careless in single player games. In the real world some creatures are more successful than others. Big deal.

Creating valid choices for the player is fundamental to good gameplay. Balanced options are essential to creating player choice, especially for the large subset of players who are psychologically inclined towards optimizing their play.

The belief that balancing (in this context to equate the power potential of all races in DW) is a prerequisite for enabling players� choice is a concept carried over form multiplayer environments, and in the context of single player a misconception that does more harm than many seem to notice.
Failing to balance races does in no way remove or reduce players� choice. Instead it enhances the players� selection of difficulty settings and roleplay variety.

To claim that the subset of players psychologically inclined towards optimizing their play must be unable to do so in a non balanced environment suggests a depency percieved where there is none. It also suggests that such players are incapable of enjoying an optimization processs as soon at it is governed by a number of limitations.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/26/2014 11:02:09 PM

Nanaki

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I happen to disagree. Having a few races with a ton of interesting/powerful gameplay mechanics while the rest get scraps or absolutly nothing at all does not make for interesting races, good roleplaying or gameplay. Note that a lot of my problems with the DW races stems not only from a balance POV, but a variety one as well.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/27/2014 6:04:04 AM

LoBaron

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You happen to disagree because you are trying to defend your own point instead of making an attempt to understand where my issue lies with the OP.

His posts suggest removing or minimizing the power delta from the various races, which is evident from his posts. This is what I oppose, as I do not think that the power balance between the races is the root cause for the problem.

You instead want an incentive for the player to play all races, which is a valid goal, but depending on the tools available does not neccesarily require the races to be equally powerful. I also think the goal might be reachable - not perfectly so, but at least for a bigger part of the races as it is currently.

But I also believe that the root cause of the problem is much more simple than it looks in the first place. The game simply has not enough variables to characteristically distinguish races in relation to the number of races. The simple solution would be to reduce the number of races (some Star Trek mods do this quite nicely btw..), the complicated solution would be to increase the number of variables.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 7/27/2014 7:15:08 AM >

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/27/2014 12:14:07 PM

Nanaki

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From personal experiance, removing races from an existing franchise tends to not go over well. Also there are a lot more variables then you think. DW makes the odd mistake in having 2-3 races use almost the same variables, while a different variable is only used by one race at all. Theres also different mixtures of variables, and all the different combinations of those have not been exhausted.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/27/2014 2:46:39 PM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
From personal experiance, removing races from an existing franchise tends to not go over well.

That sentence is useless.

I don�t know what your personal experience is, 'removing races from an existing franchis' happens all the time as soon as a player starts a new game restricted to 4-8 races, or one of the better modders out here design a scenario, and 'go over well' could mean anything for anybody.

quote:

Also there are a lot more variables then you think.

Thats a pretty bold statement as you have not clue about what I estimate on the number of variables to be. Unless you are psychic that is...

My comment was in relation to the number of races, not absolute.

quote:

DW makes the odd mistake in having 2-3 races use almost the same variables, while a different variable is only used by one race at all. Theres also different mixtures of variables, and all the different combinations of those have not been exhausted.

I do not think it is an odd mistake, rather it is a method of emphasising similarities between certain species.

Besides that no need to repeat yourself. As I said, I am positive your ideas will yield some improvements to stock.

Anyways, I guess that debate lost momentum.

You already know what my opinion is - and are probably aware that you will not convince me otherwise, and I think I understand where you are coming from and that you will probably not bound to fully agree with my PoV, which is fine with me. Have a good day.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/27/2014 3:08:27 PM

Nanaki

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quote:

That sentence is useless.

I apologize for not being specific, I wanted to avoid another crapstorm that happened a few weeks ago. But if you want me to be specific: Master of Orion 3.

quote:

Thats a pretty bold statement as you have not clue about what I estimate on the number of variables to be. Unless you are psychic that is...

If you look in the Distant Worlds/Races file you will find dozens of variables.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/28/2014 7:05:19 AM

laughinglab_MatrixForum

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Planetary revolutions need a serious looking at. I had a planet with 2500k troop strength (mostly my own racial troops, playing as Haakonish) revolt and suddenly those massive troop formations now belong to my enemy. This is absolutely absurd and not the way revolutions work at all.

There should be loyalists, as well as turncoats, and racial ideologies should perhaps play a part as well (i.e. Haakonish racial troops being far less likely to switch sides, provided they are the primary race in the empire, due to their xenophobia and sense of superiority over other races).

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/28/2014 11:02:26 AM

AKicebear

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quote:

Planetary revolutions need a serious looking at.

Ran into this problem in a recent invasion also - makes one wonder! Agree that in revolutions troops should align according to race or some similar metric - perhaps time on planet (with newly dropped troops more loyal to the empire).

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/28/2014 9:33:27 PM

Werewolf13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: b_ace

I'm loving this game so far, but I think there are a few things that need balancing. Maybe this thread can be a thread for people to list what they think are imbalanced aspects of the game.

Races:

Quameno: The tech bonuses they get from their racial characteristics, government type, and ruler are just over the top. They are incredibly OP.

Gizurean: Over time, their permanent leader becomes a god. Probably not as OP as the Quameno, but they are up there.

Ketarov: The AI doesn't seem to utilize their bonuses very well; they seem pretty underpowered.

Atuuk: Seem to be a bit underpowered compared to other races.

Governments: Some types seem to be far, far superior to others. I can't ever imagine having a military dictatorship or corporate nationalist government. I think the autocratic governments all need to be overhauled. Democracy and Technocracy are clearly the best two types.

Balance sucks. It is boring. Where's the challenge if all is balanced?

The challenge exists in overcoming that which is not balanced, playing the race that is gimped and playing it to win and winning. Or maybe one doesn't win but plays it well enough that its still up and going strong after 50 years.

Or play the superior race with all its benefits and deciding to play to achieve victory in 10 years or 15 when by rights it should take 20 or 30 if played normally.

Or role play the race. Be reckless because that's a racial characteristic and do things your real temperament absolutely screams at you not to do - go ahead throw caution to the wind. Be friendly to that race you should hate because the race you're playing is uncommonly friendly or passive.

Those are things that make DW interesting. If everything is balanced you might as well break out excel and play it on a spreadsheet. BORING!!

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/29/2014 12:26:13 AM

AKicebear

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quote:

If everything is balanced you might as well break out excel and play it on a spreadsheet. BORING!!

Wholly agree with this, and that pure balance isn't necessary nor desirable, especially since multi-player "fairness" isn't a consideration.

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RE: Things that need balancing - 7/29/2014 5:57:26 AM

Sirian

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Imbalance might be a fun thing for a human to play with, but in my opinion the AI doesn't handle them well, because - surprise! - they are unbalanced. When in 8 out of 10 ganes the Gizureans are the largest AI empire it becomes dull. I favor variety in my games and so would rather have a balanced set of computer controlled opponents.

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