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RE: Fury - 10/20/2014 12:09:59 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Tigers of any stripe were produced in relatively small numbers compared to M4's or T-34s. The trade off rate in direct combat was certainly well in favor of the Tigers against both M4s and T34s (but I am skeptical of the 50000/1500 ratio). But the neither the mechanical reliability nor the gas mileage of the Tiger was something to get giddy about. Quite a few were abandoned on the battlefield because they broke down or suffered minor damage (Axis FBs will have a hard time arguing that the Axis owned the battlefield after the action the majority of the time - the part about the Axis losing the war is kind of hard to reconcile with that). The axis was not exactly swimming in fuel supplies either. There's a Tiger II (from Peiper's KG) at the December 1944 Museum in La Gleize, Belgium. Neat gouges in the armor from the hits it suffered but one hit ruined its gun (hit the barrel) and at 4 gallons/mile it needed a lot of fuel. For lack of fuel it was abandoned on the battlefield. It has been restored to original condition except for the gouges in the armor but one can see what it looked like in 1944 (and 2014) at:

http://www.december44.com/en/history_battle_of_the_bulgela_gleize.htm

Incidentally I read somewhere that the Tiger I used in the movie was an early type abandoned on the battlefield in North Africa and would not have been in service in 1945.

A couple of colleagues at work have seen the movie. They liked it.

< Message edited by spence -- 10/20/2014 1:11:33 AM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Fury - 10/20/2014 6:34:13 AM   
Endy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline 		Many people make the mistake of directly comparing Tiger and Sherman and saying "Tiger was definately the better tank", completely ignoring the fact that these tanks were of different types, built for a different purpose. Tiger was a heavy breakthrough tank while the Sherman a general use medium tank. It's like saying that a battleship is a better warship than a cruiser, despite the fact that both had their uses and had their strenghts and weaknesses in different areas.

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Post #: 32
RE: Fury - 10/20/2014 7:32:07 AM   
Reg


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Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

from Wikipedia

The Ordnance Department would later suffer almost equal difficulty convincing the Army Ground Forces command (AGF) to accept the upgunned versions of the Sherman with the net result that not a single 76 mm armed Sherman was in service in time for D-Day, even though they could have been available months earlier. The AGF's reason for rejecting the 76 mm gun was that it would encourage tank crews to stalk enemy tanks, an idea in conflict with then current US armor doctrine, and had a much less effective high explosive shell than the 75 mm M3 gun. The 76 mm and 90 mm guns were both accepted much more readily into the tank destroyer service, however US tanks were not always able to avoid direct confrontations with German tanks and the shortcomings of the 75 mm M3 gun against armor handicapped American tanks for much of the war.


The bottom line was that the Sherman as a general purpose tank was not intended to take on Tigers and were operationally discouraged from doing so but the tragic reality was that they could not always avoid contact with the Tigers.

The M-10 was for all intents and purposes a Sherman in a tank destroyer configuration with a 76mm M7 gun (and even they found it heavy going against the newer Tigers and Panthers).



< Message edited by Reg -- 10/20/2014 8:37:58 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Fury - 10/20/2014 3:30:20 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The Quantity vs. Quality element to Sherman v. German Tanks is well-documented, but there are a couple global logistical items that I didn't know on Sherman design:

1. Shermans used gasoline which did cause them to burn easier...but they used gas, for the reason that Allied logistical planners did not want to manage 2 different fuel stocks, only one. From that standpoint, using gasoline instead of diesel makes sense. As if Germans didn't have enough fuel problems, they had to move 2 separate fuel stocks (diesel and gas)

2. Shermans were not wide enough to add needed armor and gun, but their width was restricted by the width of various transport craft, landing craft, and other shipping which had standardized compartments. It would have been a major effort to alter or rebuild all that shipping space, so planners lived with the Sherman, and all other AFVs had to fit in those dimensions (until the Pershing).

Those two things help explain to me why we went into battle with the tank we did. Now, the whole TD/Tank doctrine, that was a whole nother story.....

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Post #: 34
RE: Fury - 10/20/2014 9:06:45 PM   
SuluSea


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Status: offline 		I saw the movie today and felt it was well worth the admission price. I was hoping to see Unbroken in the previews. I read the book and watched the previews on youtube and if it's even close to the book it will be fantastic.

They did show a preview for Clint Eastwood directed American Sniper... Looks like I'll be seeing that in December

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Post #: 35
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 12:32:17 AM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

1. Shermans used gasoline which did cause them to burn easier...


German tanks also used gasoline.

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Post #: 36
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 3:51:20 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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Status: offline 		There were only 145 Tigers in Normandy, and they mostly fought on the British and Canadian sectors (Caen)... so, I wonder how many "Tigers" encountered by American Shermans were in reality PzIVs and Panthers

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Post #: 37
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 4:30:35 AM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

There were only 145 Tigers in Normandy, and they mostly fought on the British and Canadian sectors (Caen)... so, I wonder how many "Tigers" encountered by American Shermans were in reality PzIVs and Panthers


I've seen the claim that to American soldiers, all German tanks were Tigers and all German artillery were 88s. And of course, all Japanese fighter planes were Zeros.

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Post #: 38
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 5:35:51 AM   
Endy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

1. Shermans used gasoline which did cause them to burn easier...



Actually that's a myth. Shermans had a lot of bad names connected to them catching fire easily after getting hit but that was because of insecure ammunition stowage not because of type of fuel they used. Ammo did tend to catch fire a lot of times and that's why in later versions wet ammo racks were developed to get rid of this problem.

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Post #: 39
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 8:27:05 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I've never been a "tank guru" , but the 1st time I saw the trailer , the former "recco-instructer" in me mumbled "easy-8". (All that means is that it triggered a subconscious comparison to all the Sherman photo's I've seen , and in a split second look I thought that it most resembled the E-8 Sherman variant)
. In other words , my quick gut feeling. So please don't sue me or issue a jihad or fatwa if I'm wrong. I'm just saying......


quote:

from IMDB

The Main Shermans used in Fury were : Fury M4A2 76mm HVSS from Bovington Tank Museum, M4A2 75mm VVSS from Tay Restorations, M4A2 76mm HVSS from Jeep Sud Est, M4A4 75MM VVSS from Adrian Barrell, M4A1 76mm VVSS.



Despite your misgivings Steve, you were spot on.....

(HVSS - Horizontal Volute Spring System suspension, VVSS - Vertical volute spring suspension
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_volute_spring_suspension)

Lets see if you train spotters can pick them all out.........



< Message edited by Reg -- 10/21/2014 9:28:00 AM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 10:32:39 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Off your face? British idiom I guess. Everything I use for enhancement is perfectly legal though sometimes requires a prescription, unless I import them from Gorn.
warspite1

Well I could use "off yer t*ts" if you prefer, though I thought that a tad vulgar.


still wouldn't make any sense to us yanks

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Post #: 41
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 6:58:15 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I saw the movie today and felt it was well worth the admission price. I was hoping to see Unbroken in the previews. I read the book and watched the previews on youtube and if it's even close to the book it will be fantastic.

They did show a preview for Clint Eastwood directed American Sniper... Looks like I'll be seeing that in December


ETA: Saw the trailer for "American Sniper" as well. I'll have to see that too, SuluSea.

Just saw "Fury" myself today. It was good to very good, but not great. PM me for more details if interested, including spoilers.

My time on this forum (and off this forum) nitpicking has caused me to spot too many flaws in most any military film these days. Being cognizant of minutiae has its downside. This detracted from the film experience somewhat.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 10/21/2014 7:59:06 PM >

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RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 7:05:33 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Califvol

... Yes, it is a movie so the story gets a bit contrived, but very authentic look and feel. ...


Well that is about what I suspected.

It was filmed by a British film crew so it goes without saying that would have a very authentic look and feel.

It was the Hollywood plot we were a apprehensive about as it would totally undermine the opportunity of a great film accurately portraying an aspect of the war largely ignored before this.

Glad you liked it. Looks like there might be some hope!!!!




Actually, I found the cinematography, film work and special effects to be one of the picayune shortcomings of the movie. So much for your British crew= best possible equation!

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RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 7:21:16 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Off your face? British idiom I guess. Everything I use for enhancement is perfectly legal though sometimes requires a prescription, unless I import them from Gorn.
warspite1

Well I could use "off yer t*ts" if you prefer, though I thought that a tad vulgar.


still wouldn't make any sense to us yanks
warspite1

Okay, what about:

stoned, strung out, arseholed, plastered, gone, wrecked, wankered, wasted, high, bolloxed, rat-arsed, loaded, s*** faced, trashed, battered, f***ed up, zonked, high as a kite, blitzed etc etc


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Post #: 44
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 7:28:40 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Off your face? British idiom I guess. Everything I use for enhancement is perfectly legal though sometimes requires a prescription, unless I import them from Gorn.
warspite1

Well I could use "off yer t*ts" if you prefer, though I thought that a tad vulgar.


still wouldn't make any sense to us yanks
warspite1

Okay, what about:

arseholed,



Huh?

quote:


wankered,

What?

quote:


bolloxed,


What language are you speaking?

quote:


rat-arsed,


That almost looks like a hyphenated word that I know, but not quite.

Honestly, Warspite1, you're not helping my confused Yank friend very much. Sorry to be gettin' all up in your grill 'n s***, but it is what it is, yo.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 10/21/2014 8:29:09 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Fury - 10/21/2014 7:45:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!

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Post #: 46
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 1:23:00 AM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!


WTF?

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Post #: 47
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 2:14:08 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!


WTF?



Excuse me, stewardess? I speak Jive.

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Post #: 48
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 2:58:46 AM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!


WTF?



Excuse me, stewardess? I speak Jive.


Cut me some slack mama jack!


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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 49
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 3:15:33 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		I just saw it.

I was a good movie except for the last battle; I think they hired Indiana Jones' nazis for that one

The principle of evil markmanship got into new heights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_Evil_Marksmanship


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 10/22/2014 4:17:38 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 3:35:15 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I can't converse in that jive jargon but the M4 was ready for mass production and both the Soviets and the Brits got them and used them. They saw the weaknesses but made the best of them. Let's turn it around for a moment and talk about the Pz III. A nice little reliable piece of work whose chassis was used later for other useful things. The Germans were definitely on the right track, and the Sherman was kind of a leap (a successful one) forward (for US not the Reich).

I'd first complain about the US half tracks, their quality and numbers, and their lack of assault guns (short barrel self propelled howitzers without turrets) and the like. Despite my objections, they managed ok as far as offensive by maneuver goes. I think something that is telling is that Patton (to my knowledge) didn't complain about the Sherman, probably (in my view) because the complaints were based on outmoded thinking (from his point of view) of armored tactics. Mobility is what floated his boat. If a machine couldn't keep up with his maneuvers, it was worse than dead weight. The Sherman was unmatched by any other competitor in reliability, repairability, nimbleness on a real battlefield and possessing the anti-personnel capacity called for. Patton was about cavalry, not heavy tank battles over terrain that was being overrun by faster forces.

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RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 3:46:32 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		General Gavin (82nd Airborne) was of a similar mind, but executed with light infantry. We are very lucky to have had such leaders.

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RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 4:55:50 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!


WTF?



Excuse me, stewardess? I speak Jive.


Cut me some slack mama jack!

Warspite1

Jive-ass dude don't got no brains anyhow! Shiiiiit.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 53
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 8:31:55 AM   
LoBaron


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Status: offline 		And here I am realizing that those hours I spent learning proper English were all for nothing.

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Post #: 54
RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 9:57:43 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
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Status: offline 		So you don't dig my rap bro?

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RE: Fury - 10/22/2014 1:34:19 PM   
Encircled


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quote:

Incidentally I read somewhere that the Tiger I used in the movie was an early type abandoned on the battlefield in North Africa and would not have been in service in 1945.


If its the Bovington one, that was captured in Tunisia in 1943

Here it is



W**nkered and s**tfaced are my favourite two ever expressions for being two sheets into the wind

< Message edited by Encircled -- 10/22/2014 2:38:10 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: Fury - 10/23/2014 10:07:14 AM   
LeeChard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

Incidentally I read somewhere that the Tiger I used in the movie was an early type abandoned on the battlefield in North Africa and would not have been in service in 1945.


If its the Bovington one, that was captured in Tunisia in 1943

Here it is



W**nkered and s**tfaced are my favourite two ever expressions for being two sheets into the wind

If the crewman is to scale, a Tiger is bigger than I thought!

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 57
RE: Fury - 10/23/2014 10:19:01 AM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I saw the movie today and felt it was well worth the admission price. I was hoping to see Unbroken in the previews. I read the book and watched the previews on youtube and if it's even close to the book it will be fantastic.

They did show a preview for Clint Eastwood directed American Sniper... Looks like I'll be seeing that in December


ETA: Saw the trailer for "American Sniper" as well. I'll have to see that too, SuluSea.

Just saw "Fury" myself today. It was good to very good, but not great. PM me for more details if interested, including spoilers.

My time on this forum (and off this forum) nitpicking has caused me to spot too many flaws in most any military film these days. Being cognizant of minutiae has its downside. This detracted from the film experience somewhat.


Glad you enjoyed it, Andre. I had high hopes for 17 days of Winter but last I read one of the producers died and the project fell by the wayside. Here's hoping someone puts it back together.


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Post #: 58
RE: Fury - 10/27/2014 3:51:46 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Here is a clip of the Tiger vs Sherman tank scene in the movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FymIXRr3HF0

I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV7TRLpCM48

50,000 Shermans to kill 1,500 Tigers it says in this other clip. Is that true?


The reality is more like 1350 Tiger I's (give or take 1 or 2). Tiger II's - 490 produced, again give or take a few.


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Post #: 59
RE: Fury - 10/27/2014 1:46:14 PM   
btd64


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Status: offline 		The part with the M4's taking on the Tiger was pretty close to a encounter I read about a bunch of years ago. Charge the Tiger to (hopefully) get a ass shot by at least one M4. The one left anyway. "Ronco". Always lights the first time....GP

< Message edited by General Patton -- 10/27/2014 2:46:46 PM >

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