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RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/6/2014 6:35:46 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: slane
Well if nothing else you all have given me some things to think about. Feels like a waste just letting these fighters buzz around in the middle of nowhere but I definitely have to protect my convoys. I�m not sure what to do now but thanks for your help.

slane,
fighters on CAP mission will gain EXP, even if they never fight the enemy. OTOH, it's useless to guard a tiny island w/ 1 fighter group, which can only get creamed if KB shows up & smothers the base.

the AI is a variable thing - IIRC it chooses randomly from 12 available 'scripts' when you start a GC game against it. These scripts have been updated, presumably they each have different 'intentions', but they are also quite capable of throwing you an unexpected curve-ball. Deep-penetration Surf or Bomb TFs can hurt you. A robust chain of NavSearch can provide early warning.

The KB can show anywhere and smother 90% of what the Allies hold in '42 with only a few exceptions of adequately concentrated fighter groups.
What a single fighter squadron does at a small base is protect supply ships from unescorted netties. This is an essential function for the Allies.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 31

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/6/2014 9:25:26 PM

Trugrit

Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Chickenboy,

I�m not offended at all. I have a pretty thick skin.

I don�t think Steve aimed anything at me in a personal way. In fact as I�ve indicated I have the highest regard for him and you as well. You are masters of the game.

I think he has disdain for all who play the AI for more than one or two games.
I only think that because of some of the comments I have seen.

I don�t care how Steve or you play the game. I would not presume to tell you how to play.

The discussion was not about picket ships but the type of picket ship and how it was used. Most all picket ships have a way to detect air threats at distance. That is usually radar. There is a difference between ships used for a screen and a picket ship. They do have one thing in common - speed. You will find modified destroyers and high speed minesweepers.

Steve is using YMS�s as ducks on a pond, Sitting ducks. If you look at the speed and armament of a YMS you will see that it has no radar and a top speed of 15 knots.
There are cargo ships that can top 15 knots. It has light AA.
Sitting ducks are there to die. That was what drew my disdain.

Yes there were some small ships that got killed, but not on purpose. Here is a link. Look at the second paragraph where it says �..The author mentions his disgust�..

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/books/general/thurman/index.htm

When I was in a leadership position in the navy I did not have trouble sending men into danger.
I certainly don't in a game.
I did have one rule. I would never send a man where I would not go myself.

As far as minding my own business I�m too inexperienced to really comment much on the game.
I don�t know victory points, Japanese production and a whole bunch of other stuff.
I do know about real ships, I can comment on that.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 32

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/6/2014 10:49:57 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

I think he has disdain for all who play the AI for more than one or two games.

I know whenever I get around to doing a PBEM I'll probably get taught a lesson, but I don't think one or two games against the AI would prepare me for anything more than to waste someone elses' time in a PBEM with this monster. Now granted I jumped directly to a CG on the 'dark side'.

My approach has been to concentrate on one aspect of the game at a go. For instance 1st attempt just work on mechanics. Ya know, load this and get it there, without gettin' blown outta the water.

Very little resources got shipped and I restarted when I ran out. Next game, mechanics good, OK ship everything home, check. And so on and so forth. So eventually I'll get there and hopefully can give some AFB a challenge. Right now I can't commit to a PBEM anyway. Even when I do I still realize that anything can happen with the length and time commitment of this game.

So, I'll keep plugging away. In the meantime I keep reading the forum and learning. Hey, Trugrit, maybe our first PBEM can be against one another. We may have enough game style in common to be compatable opponents.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 8/6/2014 11:50:51 PM >

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Trugrit)

Post #: 33

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/6/2014 10:55:52 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

Digital lives will be lost! Put on your big boy pants and pull yourself up with your bootlaces, man! There's a war to fight!

CB, you know how to make me laugh.

_____________________________

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 34

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/7/2014 1:23:45 AM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

Chickenboy,

I�m not offended at all. I have a pretty thick skin.

I don�t think Steve aimed anything at me in a personal way. In fact as I�ve indicated I have the highest regard for him and you as well. You are masters of the game.

I think he has disdain for all who play the AI for more than one or two games.
I only think that because of some of the comments I have seen.

I don�t care how Steve or you play the game. I would not presume to tell you how to play.

The discussion was not about picket ships but the type of picket ship and how it was used. Most all picket ships have a way to detect air threats at distance. That is usually radar. There is a difference between ships used for a screen and a picket ship. They do have one thing in common - speed. You will find modified destroyers and high speed minesweepers.

Steve is using YMS�s as ducks on a pond, Sitting ducks. If you look at the speed and armament of a YMS you will see that it has no radar and a top speed of 15 knots.
There are cargo ships that can top 15 knots. It has light AA.
Sitting ducks are there to die. That was what drew my disdain.

Yes there were some small ships that got killed, but not on purpose. Here is a link. Look at the second paragraph where it says �..The author mentions his disgust�..

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/books/general/thurman/index.htm

When I was in a leadership position in the navy I did not have trouble sending men into danger.
I certainly don't in a game.
I did have one rule. I would never send a man where I would not go myself.

As far as minding my own business I�m too inexperienced to really comment much on the game.
I don�t know victory points, Japanese production and a whole bunch of other stuff.
I do know about real ships, I can comment on that.

1st of all thank you for your "admiration". Instead of admiration , I'd much rather you not put words in my mouth. I don't have disdain for you. I don't care if you never play a PBEM at all. I still play the AI. I'm playing it now in an experimental GC.

And as far as going with YMS's as pickets , it's because the game doesn't have PY's or PYc's , or any of the other converted vessels that were used as pickets. Like trawlers, tuna boats and yachts. The YMS and the YP's are as close as they get. 2nd, I'm glad you have lots of DD's , I'm pretty short on them. And so were the allies. That's why they used combatants like the early PC (13kts) and corvettes (16kts...a converted whale chaser) as convoy escorts.

3rd...these pickets are not there as soley "KB bait". No single ship in the world has a chance in hell against the KB. Pickets were patrolling to give warning of subs, raiders , to provide weather services , air sea rescue and a host of other services.

And thirdly , I was not really addressing my remarks towards you , but rather to Slane the person who asked for opinions.

But no worries. I've withdrawn all my comments , and will refrain from providing any more advice on this "hijacked thread". My offer to Slane , or any one else for advice or even mentoring if they feel they want it , still goes. I've mentored quite a few in the past, maybe I'll be able to help someone else in the future. But as I said , I'll refrain from any more posting or comments in this thread. BTW Trugrit , welcome to the forum.

_____________________________

(in reply to Trugrit)

Post #: 35

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/7/2014 2:33:29 AM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

Chickenboy,

I�m not offended at all. I have a pretty thick skin.

I don�t think Steve aimed anything at me in a personal way. In fact as I�ve indicated I have the highest regard for him and you as well. You are masters of the game.

I think he has disdain for all who play the AI for more than one or two games.
I only think that because of some of the comments I have seen.

I don�t care how Steve or you play the game. I would not presume to tell you how to play.

The discussion was not about picket ships but the type of picket ship and how it was used. Most all picket ships have a way to detect air threats at distance. That is usually radar. There is a difference between ships used for a screen and a picket ship. They do have one thing in common - speed. You will find modified destroyers and high speed minesweepers.

Steve is using YMS�s as ducks on a pond, Sitting ducks. If you look at the speed and armament of a YMS you will see that it has no radar and a top speed of 15 knots.
There are cargo ships that can top 15 knots. It has light AA.
Sitting ducks are there to die. That was what drew my disdain.

Yes there were some small ships that got killed, but not on purpose. Here is a link. Look at the second paragraph where it says �..The author mentions his disgust�..

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/books/general/thurman/index.htm

When I was in a leadership position in the navy I did not have trouble sending men into danger.
I certainly don't in a game.
I did have one rule. I would never send a man where I would not go myself.

As far as minding my own business I�m too inexperienced to really comment much on the game.
I don�t know victory points, Japanese production and a whole bunch of other stuff.
I do know about real ships, I can comment on that.

Trugrit,

Thanks for the link. An "interesting" book to be sure. I'm not sure that it buttresses your argument though.

If your definition (for purposes of this discussion) is relegated to FAST radar equipped pickets, then why would LSTs have been used for this purpose (radar picket duty off Okinawa) IRL? I don't think anyone would ever confuse them with a FAST ship-their top speed was a measly 12 knots. Several LCS(L)s were also hit whilest on radar picket duty off Okinawa. DEs have a top speed of 24 knots-hardly a speed boat by comparison to their more speedy DD bretheren.

Check this site for a case by case list of ships damaged or sunk by 'special weapons'. You'll find a goodly number of ships on the list that are eye-poppingly vulnerable. Not fast, not speedy, but "available to do their part". Check out the 5th column that cites location hit and details which picket station these craft were dispatched to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_vessels_struck_by_Japanese_special_attack_weapons

The author you cited may have sneered derisively at the quote from the Admiral about expendability, but clearly that's one of the reasons that the Admiral backed usage of these ships in that role. He (the author) may not have liked it looking through the retrospectoscope, but that's the way it was and why it was. They *were* expendable and not particularly well suited to a role that required a well-armed speedy defense. They were put into harm's way intentionally. Hopefully not to die, but to do a very hard and necessary job. A bitter calculus, but that's the way it was.

You are certainly entitled to set up your defenses as you see fit with the rationale you believe just. But what you're describing (only FAST radar-equipped ships need apply) is not the way it was historically.

Lastly, about AW1Steve. I've known him personally for a number of years. I've played him in a number of PBEMs. I think I've read just about every post the man's made. He's a good man and a good friend. I don't recall him ever disparaging another for playing AI for more than one or two games. Far from it. You've made an error in your assessment. We both know that a large percentage of players that we know and admire play exclusively AI games. We don't judge them on that basis.

True dat-AI play is *different* from PBEM play. No question 'bout it. I think that's the point that he (and I) have been trying to make about the difference. Not that one is more 'worthy' than the other.

Anyways, thank you for the kind compliment about being a 'master of the game'. I don't see it, frankly

, but it was nice of you to say so.

PM me if you want to discuss this further.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 8/7/2014 3:35:42 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Trugrit)

Post #: 36

RE: Opinions Wanted - 8/7/2014 10:42:32 AM

Trugrit

Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Steve and Chickenboy,

Yes, let�s end this thread. I have badly misjudged Steve and I apologize.
I wrecked slane�s thread and I apologize.

I�ll end this with a joke that could apply to the KB:

Two men are camping when a Grizzly bear shows up ready to devour them.
One man begins to rapidly put on his tennis shoes.
The other man says �You don�t think you can outrun that bear do you?�
The other man says �No, I don�t have to outrun the bear; I just have to outrun you�

This is my final post on this thread.

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 37