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Ukraine - 8/29/2014 1:36:27 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
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Status: offline 		If we could do Red on Red in the game we could do Ukraine 2014. There may be a way to do that by creating an OOB for the Ukrainians independently of the Soviets.

I'll check into that.

Good Hunting.

MR




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RE: Ukraine - 8/29/2014 1:56:28 PM   
Tazak

 

Posts: 1452
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Terrorist???? who's calling them terrorists these days - nevermind noticed it was made by the Ukraine government

< Message edited by Tazak -- 8/29/2014 3:07:19 PM >

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RE: Ukraine - 8/29/2014 2:05:31 PM   
SwampYankee68


Posts: 1186
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From: Connecticut, U.S.
Status: offline 		Clearly a totally hypothetical scenario, as the Russians are only sending in humanitarian aid... Perhaps you can create a scenario in which the Russian "Aid Workers" must successfully deliver their teddy bears & ginger snaps?

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RE: Ukraine - 8/29/2014 2:09:33 PM   
Tazak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Clearly a totally hypothetical scenario, as the Russians are only sending in humanitarian aid... Perhaps you can create a scenario in which the Russian "Aid Workers" must successfully deliver their teddy bears & ginger snaps?


delivery options include BM21 rockets and 2S7 shells free of charge

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RE: Ukraine - 8/29/2014 2:54:09 PM   
SwampYankee68


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Status: offline 		Those are some dangerous teddy bears...

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RE: Ukraine - 8/30/2014 6:41:34 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
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Status: offline 		I am loving the equipment being used over there!









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RE: Ukraine - 8/30/2014 11:55:40 PM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

Posts: 469
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Status: offline 		That stuff might be from a museum, but you're still just as dead if you get shot by an old machine gun....

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RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 12:36:01 AM   
CaptCarnage

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/24/2011
Status: offline 		I wouldn't mind if you spend your efforts on different things than on current affairs. Historic events, fine - alternative histories, all good. But a conflict that hasn't been resolved yet will lead to endless discussion about who is stronger, weaker etc. Be careful not to be seen as picking sides.
Ukraine 2014 doesn't add anything good to the mix.

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Post #: 8
RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 5:21:03 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
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Status: offline 		bit one sided maybe

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Post #: 9
RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 6:14:25 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Agree. Did you notice the rifle the guy is holding? Check out the type. It isn't Soviet

I like old rifles too



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RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 9:56:47 AM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
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Status: offline 		What type of rifle is it? For those as ignorant as me.

Picking sides? Yes, as Devs wishing to make money (and avoid offending possible customers) you would certainly have to be careful about picking sides (though that financial reason is surely the only one to avoid picking sides?). But I don't think that would be difficult. The present game doesn't seem to pick sides at all.

As for adding something interesting into the mix - I disagree - I think it would be topical and very interesting, and I assume not so one-sided if NATO was in with Ukraine. That Ukraine is a currently unfolding tragedy makes it different to WW3, of course, which was no tragedy at all, but many here happily play WW2 games etc without worrying about what that might 'mean' in terms of respect for the real human participants. Me included. There are Ukraine scenarios over in CMANO (which actually do appear to take sides) which seem popular.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 8/31/2014 11:03:53 AM >

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RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 6:15:22 PM   
Richie61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

What type of rifle is it? For those as ignorant as me.


He's holding a German K98 Mauser like mine (top gun). On a side note the bottom gun is a Soviet 1941 Mosin Nagant in my picture.

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Post #: 12
RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 7:53:35 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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Status: offline 		The pic seems to have disappeared, Richie.

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RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 9:37:19 PM   
lee perry


Posts: 12
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Status: offline 		Beware, it could be the first game in which terrorists win in the end
Not really politically correct

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Post #: 14
RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 10:38:49 PM   
CaptCarnage

 

Posts: 335
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Status: offline 		The original alternative history Flashpoint is balanced and doesn't pick sides because the Devs want it to be.
Mad Russian has repeatedly said scenarios are designed so we the players can't win by much. Balanced - a design choice.

Try now to make a Ukraine-scenario balanced. Red on red won't work because of balance - Russians are way more powerful. Wait? Russians? They are not involved in this conflict. Who is the foe then? Separatists? No one knows what kind of equipment they have? Who is the foe in your scenario, Mad Russian?

Russia hasn't admitted that separatists are using their equipment so any scenario is picking sides because we all don't know what's going on. Historical scenarios are nice because we have Orbats and know the outcome. Alternative histories work nice because we have realistic Orbats and you can let your fantasy go nuts on scenarios - which is what makes Flashpoint work with balanced scenarios.

CMANO scenarios include NATO assets to introduce balance - but that wouldn't be red on red anymore, right? It's a different thing. Just stay out of Ukraine for a while, I'd suggest. Flashpoint is a strategy game for fun, with challenging scenarios - it's not a what-if wargame simulator.

< Message edited by Skyhigh -- 8/31/2014 11:40:54 PM >

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RE: Ukraine - 8/31/2014 10:55:24 PM   
SwampYankee68


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Status: offline 		Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...

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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 1:24:14 AM   
Richie61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

The pic seems to have disappeared, Richie.



The guy on the right with the flip flops one




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Post #: 17
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 8:15:36 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Status: offline 		Flashpoint is all 'what-if'. And CMANO is for fun too, no? Ukraine plus NATO versus Russia plus separatists would be this particular 'what-if', I assume. That would be balanced, wouldn't be taking sides (because it's 'what-if') and I think it would be fun. I'd like some reassurance that as, in Real Life, Russian initiatives to recoup what it considers its appropriate territorial sphere of influence, and as European nations continue to fail to respond and fail to spend even pledged amounts on NATO to put Russia off, somehow blind to the fact that parts of Europe are within what Russia considers its own rightful spheres of influence - I would have fun getting some 'false' reassurance from a what-if scenario where NATO actually did something about it.

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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 8:33:59 AM   
CaptCarnage

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...


That is an extremely Western thing to say. If Devs go along with this, they are picking sides, convicting Russians of doing things they themselves say they are not. That's picking a side and taking a political stance at the same time.

Flashpoint isn't really what-if, it's Alternative History. And it's balanced by design. Throwing NATO in the mix now to balance it would ridicule a reallife situation. It's really better just to focus on Historical what-ifs, not current-day events - because we simply dont have all the info.

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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 8:59:50 AM   
Tazak

 

Posts: 1452
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		What can NATO do these days, the old massive military camp that was West Germany no longer exists, most western countries have whittled down their armed forces to the extent that their only barely capable of fighting anti terror operations.

The UK is a prime example where at least 1 senior military commander has stated we could not fight the soviets these days with the cutbacks having ripped out the guts of the British army, I think we're down to little more than 200-300 active Challenger2's compared to the 800+ MBTs we could field mid 80's and early 90's .

Does the US have much in the way of REFORGER left in-situ or has the majority of that kit being downgraded or withdrawn. IF Putin lifts the veil of war and wants to have the buffer states that they have had for the last 100 years he's not going to wait 5 months while NATO rebuilds its forces.

What size forces does Russia have these days?, nowhere near the millions of troops and 10,000s of tanks they had in their peak, and have their current tank designs closed the technology gap, what of their training levels, with a more streamlined army that is less reliant on conscription plus learning lessons from recent conflicts they aren't the same old GSFG foes we're familiar with. What about their AD systems, is it still the view that they have the most dense and sophisticated AD system in the world, how will NATO pilots react when faced with a AD system that is generations ahead of what they have faced to date.

Lots of what if questions and a modern European setting can generate some interesting and fairly even scenarios

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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 11:41:52 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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quote:

That is an extremely Western thing to say.
If that were true it would only make the contrary position (what Russia claims is the truth)...what? ...a very 'Eastern' thing to say. And so?

I think we can take sides on current affairs, especially affairs of some importance. I think we can happily and competently decide whether the pronouncements and denials that come out of Russia, with its particular political system (shall we call it a 'corrupt oligarchy'?)are to be taken as more or less truthful than those coming out of the US or NATO (without taking sides, myself, on which I would go for...after all, some people (in 'the West', mind you, where they are still free to do so...)say that the USA is a corrupt oligarchy...). There may be Russians who buy the game, and who support their political oligarchy, there may be others who don't. Also, to criticise the political oligarchy running the country and milking it is not to criticise 'Russia' (or the USA, if you think their system is corrupt). It doesn't mean you've said something offensive to those Russians who may or may not be in here. But I'm just making the point that where people are being killed and it's a very significant world event (especially for Europe) then I don't have a problem with people taking sides. I think you definitely should take sides.

For myself, I'm British and only too happy to read criticism of the british political system and british actions abroad. If people criticise the UK I don't assume they're criticising me, and I'm glad people have an opinion and express it freely. If they happen to be Chinese, say, then I wouldn't discount it by calling it 'Eastern', because I'm happy for political regimes of any sort to be criticised. the more the better.

But you're right that the devs - mindful of the Russian market - might wish to make sure they don't, for financial reasons. But the suggested scenario doesn't take sides, I think. No? Alternative history/what-if - different terms for the same thing - something that didn't happen. Didn't happen yet, in the case of Ukraine, and highly unlikely to, if we're talking about NATO v Russia.

quote:

Lots of what if questions and a modern European setting can generate some interesting and fairly even scenarios


Couldn't agree more. And I thnink it would be a plus point for most newcomers to the game, and those thinking of buying, that they could play a topical red-hot scenario - for both 'western' and 'eastern' newcomers and potential buyers. I think it would be good for the OTS coffers, for sure. And thus good for the game.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 9/1/2014 12:51:27 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 1:09:53 PM   
CaptCarnage

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 5/24/2011
Status: offline 		Well let's get back to the original posting here. It was about Red vs Red.

Before making any kind of official OTS Red vs Red scenario about Ukraine, perhaps you might want to determine first whether it is Red vs Red. Again: who is the foe?
That's why I said it's a Western thing to say Russia is, because about 150 million Russians will disagree. They are not involved. Whether that's mass propaganda making them think that, or not, they aren't involved. And they probably will argue we in the West are brainwashed. Follow the RussiaToday website for a while and you will know what I mean.

Up until now, Flashpoint doesn't take sides because they offer winnable campaigns and scenarios for every side. And they might offer a Ukraine package with 2 campaigns that will make it fun to play both sides i.e. they make it balanced, but lets face it: a quick search on military assets in both countries doesn't really tip the balance to Ukraine.
So to make fun scenarios, the scenario writer has to come up with some bullsh*t to defy reality. That's why I say Flashpoint is an alternative history thing, because the scenario writer made up a nice plausible story in which he fitted balanced battles.

Just a note about CMANO: it's a different thing. In CMANO I can pitch a group of fighters vs. a few warships and see who will win. I can simulate subs vs. warships and see which platforms perform better. Flashpoint isn't really that kind of a game, I think. It's more a tactical game where choosing killing grounds and vantage points make all the difference, and so it really needs balanced scenarios to make it fun. In CMANO there are a lot more options for units (speed, course, altitude, EMCON settings etc.). It's more about military platform vs military platform. Flashpoint is more about tactical planning and requires a balanced scenario. Because in a Red vs Red way of thinking, Ukraine would be completely overwhelmed and outnumbered so you can have the best tactical plan for your unit, but eventually Russian tanks will shoot everyone from those vantage points.
Again, to make it fun and winnable, Mad Russian has to make balanced scenarios and that would already throw realism out of the window.
The above assumes that Russia is involved, which they deny. So it would have to be seperatists vs Ukr army but what do we know about those Orbats? The question who shot the MH17 airliner still hasnt been answered because Russians and separatists just deny the separatists had that kind of equipment.

So that's why I'd say, don't do Ukraine (that is, if you put it like an official release or something). It's not gonna really realistic.

But well, Red vs Red, Blue vs Blue - would be very nice though! Why not make it scenarios that depict training battles?

For those who want NATO vs Russian scenarios... eeh, didn't the game already have those?? ;)

< Message edited by Skyhigh -- 9/1/2014 2:37:37 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 2:32:37 PM   
SwampYankee68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...


That is an extremely Western thing to say. If Devs go along with this, they are picking sides, convicting Russians of doing things they themselves say they are not. That's picking a side and taking a political stance at the same time.

Flashpoint isn't really what-if, it's Alternative History. And it's balanced by design. Throwing NATO in the mix now to balance it would ridicule a reallife situation. It's really better just to focus on Historical what-ifs, not current-day events - because we simply dont have all the info.


Sky I don't agree with almost all of your statement, but this isn't the place for political debate so I'll let it drop.



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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 3:32:20 PM   
Tazak

 

Posts: 1452
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I think it comes down to the wording used when naming each force, the two names that pop to mind "Ukrainian Loyalist" and "Ukrainian Separatists" are about the most neutral wording I can think of. IMO we're not talking about who's in the right and who's in the wrong, more that we see 2 well/similar equipped forces fighting over terrain and we're modelling the likely tactics used or what we would have done differently if we were the local commander.

I don't think history will condemn us if we get names for each force wrong, or that we mimicked incorrect tactics but hopefully judge us by the amount of enjoyment we had second guessing the actual commanders.


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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 3:52:51 PM   
CaptCarnage

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

IMO we're not talking about who's in the right and who's in the wrong, more that we see 2 well/similar equipped forces fighting over terrain and we're modelling the likely tactics used or what we would have done differently if we were the local commander.


What's the point of naming that a Ukraine scenario?

Or let me ask it differently: I'd like to see a US vs US battle as well. And US vs UK. And West Germany vs West Germany. Which real life situations are we gonna use for that?

Or, the question maybe should be: why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?

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Post #: 25
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 3:56:09 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		History will forget us, no matter what we do with the Ukraine campaign....

As to right and wrong, that IS a difficult question, given the various mixes of nationalities and language speakers in the various different regions involved, given also the recent history of the region and the various ways parcels of land, such as Ukraine, or Crimea, have been named or 'owned' in the recent past. Plus the burden of history and a consciousness of it. Those issues make it difficult, I think, to categorically work out who is right and who is wrong. But as to who is telling a systematic schema of lies about the issues and events, I think that's very easy.

I would love to see a Ukraine Nato v Russia campaign. But is MR going to do one?

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Post #: 26
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 4:01:54 PM   
Tazak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh
why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?


I hope we don't, my next "masterpeice" I'm working on is around two fictional countries, fighting each other on a smallish island that strangely appears identical to Sardinia, both have been buying NATO tanks etc and their force structure is very similar, the 2nd piece I was going to do was same situation but using Soviet kit

slight change of topic - anyone see a change in Military scenario briefings for exercises after the Berlin wall fell, at first we had to call the enemy "red force" rather than "WP or Soviet forces", a few years later we got told we had to call "red forces" as "gold forces" as it had been deemed that red forces could be associated with the red Russian flag.

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RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 4:01:58 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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quote:

why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?
Immersion?

Why do we need a game at all? We could just imagine we're doing it, in our heads. It's an imaginative thing. Having a 'link' to reality helps with the immersion, perhaps?

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Post #: 28
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 5:46:53 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh

Try now to make a Ukraine-scenario balanced. Red on red won't work because of balance - Russians are way more powerful. Wait? Russians?


There are Russian combat forces inside the Ukraine. Putin has publicly stated that he is considering making Eastern Ukraine a Soviet state.

Yes, Russian vs Ukrainians could be a fact at any moment.


quote:


They are not involved in this conflict. Who is the foe then? Separatists? No one knows what kind of equipment they have? Who is the foe in your scenario, Mad Russian?

Russia hasn't admitted that separatists are using their equipment so any scenario is picking sides because we all don't know what's going on. Historical scenarios are nice because we have Orbats and know the outcome. Alternative histories work nice because we have realistic Orbats and you can let your fantasy go nuts on scenarios - which is what makes Flashpoint work with balanced scenarios.



Not sure what news you are watching. What I see is Russia is up to it's eyeballs in the 'Ukrainian Civil War'.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 29
RE: Ukraine - 9/1/2014 5:51:03 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...


That is an extremely Western thing to say. If Devs go along with this, they are picking sides, convicting Russians of doing things they themselves say they are not. That's picking a side and taking a political stance at the same time.

Flashpoint isn't really what-if, it's Alternative History. And it's balanced by design. Throwing NATO in the mix now to balance it would ridicule a reallife situation. It's really better just to focus on Historical what-ifs, not current-day events - because we simply dont have all the info.


I for one have little confidence in any government that screams they are not involved in anything.

I'm not taking sides, what I'm doing is bring to this forum the fact that FPC could do scenarios/campaigns involving both Russia and Ukraine. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that Russia is blameless in all this. Or that NATO may not respond.

Personally, for me, I don't trust the Russians political adgenda. Just like they don't trust ours. Both with good reason.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 9/1/2014 6:52:14 PM >

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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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