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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Flashpoint Campaigns Series >> Requested Features and Ideas >> Maps: Art versus Functionality

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Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 10:55:44 AM

CapnDarwin

Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
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Okay. Here is the one stop shop for questions, comments, gripes, etc. on maps and future map direction. Be civilized or the posts and thread will get taken down.

Thank you!

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

Post #: 1

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 12:37:09 PM

MikeGER

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline

Well, I somehow started it with a comment marveling over Plodder's Berlin Map in his thread in the mod section ...

the way the topic is now named here shows that the underlying problem is still not understood by OTS

its not 'Art versus Functionality' its Functionality by (working) Art

its not a matter of 'art taste', or a 'nice to have' its about fun with the game or not so much fun with the game and not chrome or blink blink at all

Yesterday i started "Thor's Hammer" for the first time seriously on vanilla and had difficulty to read the terrain, after 2 turns i quite.
I had made unfixable bad decisions in unit start placements, then i restarted on Williams 'inverted summer map' and it worked like a charm ...i guess mainly because i 'see' the 3d-elevation level of the terrain much better and overall get an 'intuitive feel' for the landscape strategic features and how to utilze them ?....its difficult to explain for me

i played "Time to Dance" to death (and i still do :-) ) so i had absorbed its lay of the land on vanila over the uncountable repetitions very early (and there were simply no alternatives to see how much more functional a map could be in the beginning and the beta) so i didn't had noticed the difference all to much on that small map ...until now where FP:RS is almost done (V2.06) and i found the time to actually play more scenarios

beating the dead horse riposte: The reasons why the vanila maps came out like the were is very well answers by OTS! and that's the past
Now its about the next release

Personaly i don't have any problem if the release of next games is a month later for more 'fuctional by art'-maps, or even if Matrix/Slitherine charge $4.98 more for OTS hiring an intern, who get tasked 'to crunch on' the maps
(as lang as the $5 are not just for a fleet of new Porsches or a Ch�let in the Swiss for the Publisher overhead ;-) )

Well Plodder's Berlin map will be above and beyond and asking to much, but his (or Williams's) RS1 maps for example give a good idea

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 9/9/2014 1:44:44 PM >

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 2

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 1:26:00 PM

zakblood

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Joined: 10/4/2012
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no matter how nice a map looks, if it doesn't display what's needed its only eye candy tbh so for me i'd prefer more detail of heights and contours etc and less fill / eye candy

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 3

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 3:12:16 PM

IronMikeGolf

Posts: 899
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline

I love William's maps. They have a DIA 1:50000 UTM feel to them. It's like coming home. And they help me immensely in visualizing the battlespace.

While it is not a map issue, per se, I am much more interested in what goes in front of a map hanging in the TOC or TAC CP: overlays. What metters here is making sure a map still works when overlays are added.

_____________________________

Jeff
Sua Sponte

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 4

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 3:15:26 PM

cbelva

Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER

the way the topic is now named here shows that the underlying problem is still not understood by OTS

Just let me say that we understand the problem and what people are saying. One of our goals in the next release is to improve the look of the maps while maintaining and even improving functionality. It has never been the attitude of this team to just sit back and let the modders improve our product. We did make it mod friendly because we know how much people love modding and appreciate features like that. But it was not done so that we could "sit back" and let others do all the work. We are as active on this forum for a reason. We want to make a game that people want to play and keep on playing for years to come. Everyone's opinion is very important to us even if we end up rejecting it. Every week in our developers' meetings we spend time discussing the bugs report and the criticisms and the comments that you guys have posted on the forum the week before. The biggest problem we have (IMHO) is that Rob and Capn D wants to please everyone. Steve (MR) and I are the voice of reason reminding them that we can't do everything thing now, especially if we want to move on to 2.1 which will be a big overhaul and improvements in the engine.

I really like what William and Plodder has done. The one thing I don't want to do is hinder their ability to do their modding. Regardless where we go with improving the maps, I would hope that they and others like them keep putting out their maps too. I like variety.

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 5

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 3:38:18 PM

zakblood

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Joined: 10/4/2012
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variety is the spice of life, but it's an option if a modder does it, as you have the options to add it or not, if you do it then its an option if you use it or not, for me to be able to distinguish between contours easily is or more benefit than any nicer looking maps, but i'm i on the wrong subject?

as Art versus Functionality meaning better looking (art) or Functionality ie for me (distinguish between contours more easily) as terrain at first glance means life or death in planning if you get it right, your troops / unit survives, if you get it wrong, then it either takes damage or gets destroyed.

so for me, Functionality should always be the deciding factor, if a moder or yourselves makes batter maps that you can see stuff more clearly then i'm all for it, if it takes that much more time that other stuff like bugs and added content goes by the wayside for longer, then do the addon / updates bug fixes and forget the maps for me as 2.1 is more important

< Message edited by zakblood -- 9/9/2014 4:40:03 PM >

(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 6

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 4:20:12 PM

MikeGER

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline

A picture is worth a thousand words ...here are three times the map #1:

[quoted from a former post]
Vanila, W1ll14m's, and The Plodder's interpreation showing the same part around Bad Neustadt we all know from 'A Time to dance' for comparison
(i tried to show the same spot in the same scale) Personaly, i achieved the best results on the Plodder map so far

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 9/9/2014 5:27:44 PM >

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 7

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 6:45:15 PM

harry_vdk

Posts: 338
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: Drachten
Status: offline

I like the maps of William and Plodder. Both are great.

William give a real map feeling and sometimes the struggle of fast reading/interpretation of the map. Just how it acts on the field with the map on a table.

The first time I saw the map of Plotter was my first impression to gamy but when I play very well and never a mistake with the hight.

remake a map take time, making a new map more time and take a map outside the comfort zone even more time.

The current maps of ots are between a old fashion boardgame look (like the latest sample of "Valley of Tears") and a game map.

My suggestion is:
Upgrade the map value editor to a real map editor with can generate dynamic a map with a boardgame look from the definition without a need for a .png file, optional can this override with a external .png like the maps made by William and Plodder.

This give some advantages:
1, Easier way of making maps.
2, Modding of a map by replacing a part of a definition change all the [default] maps.
3, The AI know all the information of the map like roads/hight/terrain type etc.

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 8

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/9/2014 8:14:47 PM

Phoenix100

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The Plodder's maps are super-clear as far as contours go, I think. Superb achievement. You can look at them and see the heights involved without the need to do anything else at all (like hover over a hex to get the elevation, or switch on the height layers numbers). I assume that style is just what zakblood needs, since you can't provide any more useful contours in a game which only provides such gross gradations as effects for the engine to use (there's a 500m hex and it has one height within the hex, basically, which is not how it is in real life, clearly). But I personally use Wiliam's and prefer them because they look more like real maps and less like a board game, and in real life with real maps it's not always obvious how the contours lie. The basic reason Williams look better and are more immersive (for me, and imho) is the same reason they are less clear - they try to mitigate the game-board look provided by a hex grid, by blurring the hex grid. The Plodder has decided it's a hex game and you can't get past this, so there they are and he has provided a stirling way of rendering height clear. Which you use depends how much you hate hexes, I suspect. And I guess if you're nostalgic about hex based board games you might actually want to take a trip down memory lane and play on the vanilla maps too.

For me, for the future, developments in the maps would mean a smaller scale hex grid, perhaps, which would then allow more natural, normal-looking, real-life-accurate maps to be drawn and used. Difficult to do this, I think if the basic unit is 500m.

(in reply to harry_vdk)

Post #: 9

RE: Maps: Art versus Functionality - 9/11/2014 10:40:20 AM

zakblood

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Joined: 10/4/2012
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sorry you seem to have missed the point i was trying to make above, but i seemed to have failed poorly tbh in what i was also trying to say, the mods are great, they and only them have the time to make and add features like this, is all i was trying to say, i don't want the updates / fixes / next build / version delaying because the game markers spend any more time adding eye candy when modders can do that, was all i was trying to say but yes re reading it again i failed.

i quote you now " If folks want to once again pick up sticks and head for this horse, please start a thread in the Suggestions sub forum. I will delete further debate from this thread because Plodder should be able to showcase his art and not be distracted by another art versus function tangent"

i use the mods / maps and make some myself, but not for this game tbh.

i don't think the game is broken, i don't think the game needs more or less of anything, i like the way it's going, the direction and the news about the new stuff etc, i'm more than happy to buy the next one, wait for the next update / patch if the game makers feel the need to bring one out etc...

i love hex's, i also play more on vanilla maps as well than modded maps, but hay ho life does go on

i'm a very happy customer

end of

hopefully this makes more sense? as my other one maybe didn't or was posted too early in the morning, not that it should matter as i ramble at most times of the day tbh

< Message edited by zakblood -- 9/11/2014 11:42:20 AM >

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 10

Too much greatness - 10/12/2014 4:42:42 PM

Templer_12

Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER

A picture is worth a thousand words ...here are three times the map #1:

[quoted from a former post]
Vanila, W1ll14m's, and The Plodder's interpreation showing the same part around Bad Neustadt we all know from 'A Time to dance' for comparison
(i tried to show the same spot in the same scale) Personaly, i achieved the best results on the Plodder map so far

Here are difficult decisions to make.

Well, the first is easy: continue to use the vanilla maps yes/no.

But then...

W1ll14m's maps have a very pleasant, soft, almost realistic design and got the grid.

Plodder's maps show the elevations much better, personally I like the forests/trees better and the maps harmonize much better with the counters.

Deciding between the two is a pain!

I myself use one of the maps and miss the other ...

< Message edited by Templer -- 10/12/2014 5:44:55 PM >

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 11

RE: Too much greatness - 10/12/2014 6:21:55 PM

CapnDarwin

Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
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We allow the map mods so you can pick and choose the maps you want when you want them.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Templer_12)

Post #: 12

RE: Too much greatness - 10/18/2014 8:35:19 PM

VegasOZ

Posts: 295
Joined: 7/30/2014
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The William maps are the best balance of clarity, realistic feel, contrast and game playability.

Plodders maps have superior elevation contour markings, which is nice. I would suggest Willam adopt Plodders Contour style and then you have the perfect maps.

Both styles are very well done.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 13