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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/15/2014 8:57:50 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


The fact that so many are willing to irrevocably destroy a centuries old union because they don't like today's politicians is part of what leaves many like me utterly despondent. I consider Scots to be my countrymen, and it appears that nearly half don't return the sentiment.

Cheers

Pip



The same thing is happening in the US (though we hardly have the long history that the British Isles do).

If given a choice I believe (and I am not alone in this) that with one or two exceptions all of the deep south and every state west of the Mississippi with one exception to include the left coast would choose to say good bye to the current and future federal government without blinking an eye.

The US has become increasingly polarized with the forces of collectivism on one side and the forces of individualism on the other.

Give it another 20 years or so and one way or another we'll be facing the same question that Scotland faces today.



No we are not going through the same thing. Outside of fringe groups, there is no talk worth listening to about breaking up the Union.

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Post #: 31
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/15/2014 9:02:46 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


The fact that so many are willing to irrevocably destroy a centuries old union because they don't like today's politicians is part of what leaves many like me utterly despondent. I consider Scots to be my countrymen, and it appears that nearly half don't return the sentiment.

Cheers

Pip



The same thing is happening in the US (though we hardly have the long history that the British Isles do).

If given a choice I believe (and I am not alone in this) that with one or two exceptions all of the deep south and every state west of the Mississippi with one exception to include the left coast would choose to say good bye to the current and future federal government without blinking an eye.

The US has become increasingly polarized with the forces of collectivism on one side and the forces of individualism on the other.

Give it another 20 years or so and one way or another we'll be facing the same question that Scotland faces today.



I live in a little city in Texas and I've heard of that as well. Seems some Texicans want to break away from the Union as we speak. Now Aurealian may be correct but I just find it interesting in the small town I live in the long arm of information has reached here as well.

(in reply to Werewolf13)
Post #: 32
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/15/2014 9:39:25 PM   
jday305


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I have to agree with Werewolf above in that what can happen in the UK and happen in the US. I don't even think it may take 20 years as he mentioned. I hope it doesn't happen in either country but when the opposite sides refuse to have any dialog to discuss the issues then they just continue to drift apart. I'll be watching this with interest and to see how this effects the future of Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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Post #: 33
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/15/2014 10:42:33 PM   
radic202


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Let's just say as a French Canadian who was born in Quebec but now lives in Ontario (and yes live with about 60% of equal French rights), this "separatism" debate happened twice in my lifetime and boy oh boy! The emotions that came out of both sides probably cost me 10 years of my life.. Dad is French Canadian and Mom is from Nova-Scotia and little me at a 16 years old (the first time) caught between 2 sides at the first go around. I am pretty sure there are plenty that have parents from both nationalities and all I can say is pray that the voters choose the correct path (not siding here). Just wanted to share I have been through this twice and pray I will never go though it again.. Praying for all Scots and Englishmen/women that they find solace in whatever the outcome.

In peace and respect from someone who has lived through it.

Remember: there are no winners when emotions becomes the political weapon.

< Message edited by radic202 -- 9/15/2014 11:44:13 PM >


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Post #: 34
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 4:19:52 AM   
JDM

 

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Firstly I want to make it clear that I am a Scot and every bit as patriotic as the next man.
However, I am deeply concerned that by voting "Yes" Scotland Is sleepwalking into an unredeemable catastrophe. The prospect of splitting our Nation in two has hugely detrimental and financial consequences, for both a separate Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

So I hope that all of my friends and family North of the Border will take a few moments to read this in the spirit that it is intended and please feel free to pass this to any other current residents of Scotland who might be interested in my thoughts.

Despite how the "yes" campaign argues it, by leaving the UK, Scotland will have to apply for membership of the EU, there will be no automatic entry, and nations like Spain with their own separatist issues may well refuse to accept Scotland. This would also require Scotland to sign up to the Euro and grant Brussels jurisdiction over many issues, including but not limited to the law, immigration and border controls.

Even if Scotland wants to hold onto the Pound, The Bank of England has made it perfectly clear that just to begin discussions, supposing this was even on the table which it currently is not, a Scottish Central Bank would be required to hold reserves in excess of an independent Scotland's entire GDP. The issue of currency and banking is the bleakest or perhaps the most disingenuous piece of the independence argument.

Further the threat of withholding its share of the National Debt, if demands are not met, is frankly ludicrous and would wreck Scotland's reputation and financial standing Worldwide. This should not be underestimated, as it would destroy an independent Scotland's credit ratings and ability to borrow, as the rest of the banking world not disregard these liabilities.

In purely practical terms to unravel and recreate the institutional ties that currently bind the UK, for example the NHS or the BBC, amongst many others would be far more complicated than anyone in the "yes" campaign seems yet to have acknowledged. In addition it will be necessary to renegotiate literally thousands of international treaties and agreements covering everything from the UN, with its myriad of Departments and specialist areas. Treaties, like for example, governing Aviation, Shipping, Border Controls and a whole plethora of other other Treaties and Agreements. These would likely take years of renegotiations and certainly not the 18 months which the "Yes" campaigners would have us believe. In the meantime, would for example, airlines be willing or even able to fly through Scottish airspace.

Where will the thousands of experienced civil servants come from to carry out all of this? Who will train them? What will all this cost? The economy of scale will be lost and all of these services and departments will require to be duplicated and most importantly an Independent Scotland with a population of around one twelfth of the UK will have running costs at the same or near the same level that the combined UK now has. The economies of scale will be lost. Further the additional costs in setting up this new bureaucracy are either incalculable, or have been concealed from us. The "White Paper" lacks any detail on how any of this would be achieved.

A further and similar issue is the location, creation and staffing of Embassies in over 190 countries around the world. This would be a complete duplication of costs and services already fully funded in a combined UK and again the entire costs would require to be funded from the new and much smaller Scottish exchequer. Mirror all of this in Education, Health Services, Welfare, Pensions, Borders & Immigration, Public Spending & Investment, etc, etc, all to be wholly funded by an independent Scotland, one twelfth the size of the combined UK. Will our citizens expect or accept lower standards, of course not, they will demand at least as good as we now have, but then we are told don't worry, we have oil, so it's all sorted.

How will a Scottish, Army, Navy and Airforce be created and funded? How will the Ships, Aircraft and equipment be funded? Where will the money come from to pay for this? How will alliances be formed and who with, certainly not NATO, as the "Yes" campaign has already declared its intentions in respect of a nuclear deterrent, so NATO will not be an option. Also in the current state of international tensions, what is the plan for security and intelligence services? What has Scotland got to trade in security dealings with other nations and how will these very specialist services be created? Again the initial setup costs in establishing all of this are either incalculable or have been concealed from us or simply not considered. How long will it take to establish all of this? In the mean time, in an increasingly dangerous world, Scotland will be left exposed

The Plethero of Banking and commercial interests now urging caution are not some Whitehall conspiracy, just like me and about half of the current residents of Scotland they can see the difficulties in all of this, their warnings are heart felt and genuine.

Taxation at present levels cannot possibly hope to fund all of this, so where and how will a country with no independent currency borrow the money to manage these many issues. The recent failure of the Euro and the position of countries such as Greece and Spain are not at all dissimilar to the position that Scotland could easily be faced with. Their problems are a fair indicator of the likely outcome with ancillary problems, like unemployment levels in excess of 25% and the failure of failed banks to pay out.

So what is the solution, vote with your head not patriotic fervour, you will still be a Scot and despite a NO vote, without doubt there will be significant changes to the existing governance of Scotland, that is now beyond doubt.

(in reply to radic202)
Post #: 35
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 5:10:40 AM   
kvob

 

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As a Scot, I will be voting No. I'm often infuritated by the fact that, more times than not, I don't get the government I vote for - but that's Democracy for you. It's not perfect but it's the best we've got. The answer is to persuade others to your way of thinking, not walking away.

So, after much deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that Scotland leaving the United Kingdom would probably be one of the greatest acts of self-harm in human history.

(in reply to JDM)
Post #: 36
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 5:25:33 AM   
Jonathan Pollard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

In the mean time, in an increasingly dangerous world, Scotland will be left exposed

If Scotland had been independent in 2003 it would not have been complicit in one of the major reasons this world is increasingly dangerous, namely the invasion of Iraq. A majority of Scottish MPs voted against the war.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 5:26:49 AM   
Zap


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Maybe I don't understand much of the deep feelings. But wasn't Scotland an independent nation, at one time? And if it can't make that move now because its so dependent on England, There is something wrong(as far as I can see). I mean other countries (that were a part of the united Kingdom) have been given there chance to leave. And they also had to face many challenges. but their independence was more important to them then comfort. So, it will depend on how deep the desire Scots have to forge their own destiny.

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RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 6:01:06 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Maybe I don't understand much of the deep feelings. But wasn't Scotland an independent nation, at one time? And if it can't make that move now because its so dependent on England, There is something wrong(as far as I can see). I mean other countries (that were a part of the united Kingdom) have been given there chance to leave. And they also had to face many challenges. but their independence was more important to them then comfort. So, it will depend on how deep the desire Scots have to forge their own destiny.
Warspite1

Zap no one is saying they CAN'T make that move now. The question is what will it mean to do so? Yes Scotland was independent previously - 300 years ago - that is long time ago. Unravelling so much that we share is not impossible and, if that is want they want, it can be done, but make no mistake, it WILL be a painful, expensive and hugely uncertain process.




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Post #: 39
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 6:20:31 AM   
kvob

 

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Scotland isn't dependent on England. and just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you have to?
Why break the Union?
Are we subjugated? No.
Are we excluded from democratic processes? No
Are we classed as second-class citizens? No
Is our Scottish identity under threat by being part of the Union? No
Are we slowly being subsumed by the English? No

We are a smaller nation - that much is fact - but I believe we are valued as much as every other nation of the Union. In truth, it is a partnership of equals.

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 40
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 6:27:56 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard


quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

In the mean time, in an increasingly dangerous world, Scotland will be left exposed

If Scotland had been independent in 2003 it would not have been complicit in one of the major reasons this world is increasingly dangerous, namely the invasion of Iraq. A majority of Scottish MPs voted against the war.
warspite1

I thought the majority of MP's in Scotland were Labour? - and it was Tony Blair and Labour that took the UK to war.

I don't think bringing Iraq into this is helpful. There was a large % of the population in all four home countries that were anti-war, but the government in power had a huge majority - and were supported anyway by the opposition. How many MP's did they have in Scotland?

That is democracy...


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Post #: 41
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 6:34:58 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kvob

Scotland isn't dependent on England. and just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you have to?
Why break the Union?
Are we subjugated? No.
Are we excluded from democratic processes? No
Are we classed as second-class citizens? No
Is our Scottish identity under threat by being part of the Union? No
Are we slowly being subsumed by the English? No

We are a smaller nation - that much is fact - but I believe we are valued as much as every other nation of the Union. In truth, it is a partnership of equals.
warspite1

Absolutely. Look at the number of Scots holding positions of high office in finance, the armed forces, government, business. We are all treated equally, all with the same rights.

We are four separate countries, each with its own distinct identity. But you know what? We really are better together.





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Post #: 42
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 6:44:40 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kvob

As a Scot, I will be voting No. I'm often infuritated by the fact that, more times than not, I don't get the government I vote for - but that's Democracy for you. It's not perfect but it's the best we've got. The answer is to persuade others to your way of thinking, not walking away.

So, after much deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that Scotland leaving the United Kingdom would probably be one of the greatest acts of self-harm in human history.
warspite1

Well I'm English. I've been voting for just over 30 years. I have had the government I want for less than half that time.

But as you rightly say, that's democracy.


_____________________________

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Post #: 43
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 10:47:57 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: kvob

As a Scot, I will be voting No. I'm often infuritated by the fact that, more times than not, I don't get the government I vote for - but that's Democracy for you. It's not perfect but it's the best we've got. The answer is to persuade others to your way of thinking, not walking away.

So, after much deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that Scotland leaving the United Kingdom would probably be one of the greatest acts of self-harm in human history.
warspite1

Well I'm English. I've been voting for just over 30 years. I have had the government I want for less than half that time.

But as you rightly say, that's democracy.




Just one last response and then I'll shut up (promise).

The problem with this argument is if it was just about the Conservatives I'd have some sympathy. The distaste of many who live here for the post-Thatcher Tory party is deep, but that is not to say there is not a significant right of centre constituency here. So agree, the SNP slogan of 'no more Tory Govts' is silly. Nice, but silly. Even post independence, I'd be worried at the prospect of PM Boris in the same way as I was deeply worried at Berlusconi and his poisoning of the Italian state (the reason why is below).

The problem, as I've stated above, is the nature of the post Blair New Labour. This too fails utterly to represent the views and aspirations of the many Scots who want to vote left of centre. Blair, and Irn Brown, had the fantasy that they could tack as far to the right as they wanted because those on the left had no where to go. Well in Scotland they got that wrong and you can track the loss of the Labour vote over the 2007-2011 Scottish electoral cycle as the proof.

So from a left of centre Scottish perspective, we are no longer represented at Westminster. This is not the case in the Scottish Parliament.

Now the SNP is a coalition, that mirrors the wider Scottish polity, from those in tune with what you could call European Christian Democracy (both the current Conservative leader in Holyrood and her predecessor amply reflect this world view ... and have reaped modest electoral reward as a result), those who want a right wing social democracy (say the Labour Party of 1992 or so) and those who want a left wing social democracy. I suspect it will splinter after independence as the glue that holds these strands (& others, including the remnants of the old blood and soil nationalists) will fracture. This electoral landscape is utterly different to Westminster, so to many, we see Holyrood (site of the Scottish Parliament) as a place where we can at least recognise a political debate we can welcome.

So, as things stand, from the point of view of the Scottish left (& I accept that on a forum like this, this is very much a minority position), if Scotland votes No we will not get a government we elect, regardless. In a Scottish context we might, or we may get a coalition that partially reflects our aspirations.

Now, to the nationality issue. I fear I fail the Scottish by blood/proud Scot argument so often put forward by Unionists. I have to confess I have foreigners in my family. My maternal Grandmother was Italian, her family fled Mussolini and came to Glasgow in the 1930s (to join the already large Italian community here). My maternal Grandfather came from Fife originally but moved to Glasgow in the 1920s. My father was English, his family came from South Dorset. I was born outside the UK. My partner is Dutch. Our kids have dual nationality, oddly the one who would vote yes currently lives in Amsterdam, the other, planning to vote no lives in Edinburgh. So my family is riddled with foreigners, perhaps one reason why the concept has zero meaning to me.

The reason why this matters is that staying in the EU is exceptionally important to me. I am not prepared to risk being chucked out as a result of some wierd Tory-UKIP fixation, neither party exactly with much electoral interest in Scotland (so we end up back where this started). Now some of the anglophonic commentators may not be able to read other languages. Thats a pity as there is a strong strand in the Dutch and Italian as well as the French press that basically they are fed up with the UK. Their argument is that they know the Euro needed political structures but they held off due to English sensitivities. They now, as a matter of acknowledged urgency, need to get on with this and are very fed up with Conservative temper tantrums. If they are pushed too far over this renegotiation strategy, that mood will build ... and as with the current bad feeling being constructed between England and Scotland, it may have real consequences.

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Post #: 44
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 11:07:18 AM   
warspite1


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No one wants you to shut up - you have been an excellent contributor to the debate - totally wrong of course, but a sensible debater

One thing I really fail to get about the Yes voters (and the importance you attach to the EU really brings this out) is this:

Having been lied to by Heath and numerous traitors since, We have been sleep walking to a federal Europe (as opposed to what we originally were told we were voting for). As such all the matters of real importance will be taken away from individual countries sooner rather than later. You are fully up for that, that is important to you. But I do not understand the reasoning: yes I want to be free from Westminster ...... Just so I can be bossed around from Brussels.

Makes no sense to me.

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Post #: 45
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 11:14:34 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The reason why this matters is that staying in the EU is exceptionally important to me. I am not prepared to risk being chucked out as a result of some wierd Tory-UKIP fixation, neither party exactly with much electoral interest in Scotland (so we end up back where this started).


That's why I would be voting 'yes' were I Scottish. I find it both hypocritical and ironic that most of the arguments for Scotland staying in the UK can easily be rephrased as arguments for the UK staying in the EU, yet somehow the same people can reach totally different conclusions. Fortunately, I have dual Irish citizenship and so will remain an EU citizen regardless of 'little Englander' idiocy in the UK. Come to that, I'll actually be in Dublin when the vote is announced, which should be fun.

I'll float some of the consequences of a 'yes' vote regarding Ireland, though. Heads have already been turned in both Dublin and Belfast about the comments from some retired general about Scottish lives being lost 'preserving the Union' in Northern Ireland, which was certainly not their stated purpose. What 'Union' would Irish Unionists now be in favour of? The UK will still be there, but the strongest Northern ties to the mainland were always with Scotland, not England. Might that sway enough potential votes for NI to join the Republic in the same style referendum the Scots had? It's virtually impossible to see that happening without violence, or the result being accepted by the losing side, but can Northern Irish republicans fairly be denied what was given to Scottish nationalists?

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Post #: 46
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 11:24:40 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The reason why this matters is that staying in the EU is exceptionally important to me. I am not prepared to risk being chucked out as a result of some wierd Tory-UKIP fixation, neither party exactly with much electoral interest in Scotland (so we end up back where this started).


That's why I would be voting 'yes' were I Scottish. I find it both hypocritical and ironic that most of the arguments for Scotland staying in the UK can easily be rephrased as arguments for the UK staying in the EU, yet somehow the same people can reach totally different conclusions. Fortunately, I have dual Irish citizenship and so will remain an EU citizen regardless of 'little Englander' idiocy in the UK. Come to that, I'll actually be in Dublin when the vote is announced, which should be fun.

I'll float some of the consequences of a 'yes' vote regarding Ireland, though. Heads have already been turned in both Dublin and Belfast about the comments from some retired general about Scottish lives being lost 'preserving the Union' in Northern Ireland, which was certainly not their stated purpose. What 'Union' would Irish Unionists now be in favour of? The UK will still be there, but the strongest Northern ties to the mainland were always with Scotland, not England. Might that sway enough potential votes for NI to join the Republic in the same style referendum the Scots had? It's virtually impossible to see that happening without violence, or the result being accepted by the losing side, but can Northern Irish republicans fairly be denied what was given to Scottish nationalists?

Warspite1

Arguments for the UK remaining in the EU can be applied to Scotland remaining in the UK? No not really, the relationship is about as different as it's possible to be. Or are you referring to "little Englander" applying to "little Scot idiocy"?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/16/2014 12:27:52 PM >


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Post #: 47
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 11:46:21 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Arguments for the UK remaining in the EU can be applied to Scotland remaining in the UK? No not really, the relationship is about as different as it's possible to be.


There we will have to agree to disagree.

quote:

Or are you referring to "little Englander" applying to "little Scot idiocy"?


Nope. The Scots have reasons for leaving the UK other than a load of cobblers about 'lost sovereignty' and disliking the English (or, in EU terms disliking the French and/or Germans ). Although, in economic terms alone, I think Scottish independence would be a mistake and possibly a very big mistake. No Scottish government can deliver the sort of pink-and-fluffy semi-socialist Utopia Salmond has been promising any more than any other government anywhere else.

Politically, I think that a few years after independence, the landscape will level in both Scotland and England with the growth of viable right wing and left wing alternatives, respectively. People want a real choice, especially when the incumbants have really screwed up, which is bound to happen sooner or later. That's what happened in Ireland, and in some pretty surprising ways.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 48
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 11:56:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Arguments for the UK remaining in the EU can be applied to Scotland remaining in the UK? No not really, the relationship is about as different as it's possible to be.


There we will have to agree to disagree.

quote:

Or are you referring to "little Englander" applying to "little Scot idiocy"?


Nope. The Scots have reasons for leaving the UK other than a load of cobblers about 'lost sovereignty' and disliking the English (or, in EU terms disliking the French and/or Germans ). Although, in economic terms alone, I think Scottish independence would be a mistake and possibly a very big mistake. No Scottish government can deliver the sort of pink-and-fluffy semi-socialist Utopia Salmond has been promising any more than any other government anywhere else.

Politically, I think that a few years after independence, the landscape will level in both Scotland and England with the growth of viable right wing and left wing alternatives, respectively. People want a real choice, especially when the incumbants have really screwed up, which is bound to happen sooner or later. That's what happened in Ireland, and in some pretty surprising ways.

warspite1

In the same way that I agreed with Loki about Yes voting Scots not necessarily voting with their hearts, while No voting Scots must all be voting with their heads, you may wish to give some of the English who don't want a Federal Europe the benefit of the doubt. Not sure why Idiocy and Cobblers need to be brought into the equation, but there are quite a lot of people of all nationalities in the UK who are not "dislikers" of the French or the Germans - or anyone else frankly* but do not want a load of unelected eurocrats making our laws for us.

Yes, I am fully in favour of the EU as originally sold - a trading block run for the benefit of all, but not what it has morphed into (and was no doubt designed to be by some from the start).

*except the Dutch of course


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/16/2014 1:16:14 PM >


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Post #: 49
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 12:32:22 PM   
Orm


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quote:

but do not want a load of unelected eurocrats making our laws for us.

How are they unelected? As I understand it they are very much elected. Not, perhaps, in the way that many would want them to but that is not the same as unelected. It is a indirect election to be sure but that is still an election and it is democratic. Very hard to influence perhaps but still not the same as unelected.

We all vote for the EU parliament and our own governments. And it is our collective elected governments and the elected EU parliament who decide on those eurocrats.

I am happy to listen to any arguments why I am wrong, not that I think I am, as long as they are civil. I might even change my opinion if the arguments are good enough.






< Message edited by Orm -- 9/16/2014 1:33:07 PM >


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Post #: 50
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 1:26:27 PM   
warspite1


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I could never be uncivil to you Ormster. To keep this thread on track we can take off line or on a new thread. I hope to keep this thread open for debate on the vote for/against Scottish independence.

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 51
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 2:15:21 PM   
Jonathan Pollard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I don't think bringing Iraq into this is helpful.

Pete Wishart MP disagrees with you. At the 10th anniversary of the House of Commons debate on the Iraq war in 2003, he said:

"On Monday it will be 10 years since Scottish Labour ignored the will of the people and pressed on with a disastrous war policy, resulting in the death of tens of thousands of people.

"This was Labour’s war – fully supported by the Tories. Tony Blair was the driving force behind the UK drive to war. He did everything he could to commit our troops, including the infamous 'dodgy dossier'. There were of course no weapons of mass destruction - there was no collusion with Al Qaeda and there was no evidence of any uranium project. In short, the basis of going to war was based on a massive lie and fallacy.

"Worse, there was no legal case. There was no UN mandate for military action and the Government’s own legal advice was not convincing.


"The Scottish people didn’t want it. 100,000 marched through the streets of Glasgow in opposition and 1 million took to the streets of London. World wide it is reckoned that the protests to the war in Iraq were the largest ever witnessed. And yet invasion and war went ahead.

"And for what? Well, ten years after the invasion of Iraq, there are over 100,000 dead, a region destabilised, a country divided along sectarian lines, and international diplomacy discredited as never before. And that’s before counting the millions of displaced people, and the hundreds of millions of pounds that this war cost us. The world has been made a more dangerous place.

"The illegal Iraq war has been one of the most damaging foreign policy misadventures ever undertaken by the UK.

"I never want another night like the 18th of March 2003. I never want my nation involved in such reckless action ever again. That’s why one of the most compelling reasons for Scottish independence is that we will never again have a UK Government take us into an illegal war that we want nothing whatever to do with."

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/6957-iraq-war-labour-mps-must-apologise-say-snp

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 52
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 2:38:28 PM   
warspite1


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Well I'm not going to get into a debate over Iraq. What he is basically saying is that if Scotland had been independent before the war HE KNOWS FOR A FACT that whatever MPs were in place in a separate Scotland, from whatever parties that had sprung up in the country (existing and maybe some new), they would not have voted for Scottish troops to take part. Hey, brilliant, and so easy to say because its popular and he can't be proved wrong.

It's all so irritating - he admits that 1m marched on London - what were they all Scottish?? Tells you something doesn't it about who supported the war?

So as he's being so wonderfully wise after the event, how about I do the same?

If it wasn't for Scotland, the English wouldn't have got involved either. Why? Because without Scotland propping up Labour, there may well have been a Tory Government in power and you know what? Yes, the Tories backed Blair, but he needed things like a sexed up dossier which, as we are all being all-knowing and wise after event, I can confirm the Tory Government would never have lied about, thus the case to Parliament would never have been made..... Thus no English involvement

Edit: Spelling, Grammar and reading

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/16/2014 5:10:12 PM >


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Jonathan Pollard)
Post #: 53
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 2:58:24 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Well I'm not going to get into a debate over Iraq.

Well said. Lets keep the focus on the current vote and what it might bring to the future.

----

I just had a discussion with a colleague (friend) that regardless on how this vote goes so would Scotland be a part of the European Union. I claimed that treaties made by UK, when Scotland was part of UK, would be upheld if Scotland were to leave UK. There would, of course, be a need to confirm them and so on but the treaties and agreements made by UK was for all of UK at that time (and that includes Scotland).

One could as easily claim that if Scotland leaves UK then the remaining part of UK would not be part of EU since the original signing part do no longer exist. In my opinion both would automatically be part of the EU after a split and the original treaty would have to be modified for all parties.

I think that Europe would be worse if UK or Scotland would leave the European Union. But it is of course in your right to do so if you so decide.

Note that I also think that Scotland would be part of NATO after a split. And FN and so on.

My thinking could all be bollocks for what do I know.

< Message edited by Orm -- 9/16/2014 3:59:25 PM >


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 54
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:02:24 PM   
warspite1


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Orm Scotland will have to apply to join the EU. Spain for one will not be overly keen to allow them in - after all, how will the Basques react to that?



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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 55
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:13:08 PM   
VPaulus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Orm Scotland will have to apply to join the EU. Spain for one will not be overly keen to allow them in - after all, how will the Basques react to that?



And what about France and Corsica? Italy and Sicily?
I see a lot of these independence movements all around Europe, getting strength.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 56
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:20:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Orm Scotland will have to apply to join the EU. Spain for one will not be overly keen to allow them in - after all, how will the Basques react to that?



And what about France and Corsica? Italy and Sicily?
I see a lot of these independence movements all around Europe, getting strength.
Warspite1

Indeed



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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to VPaulus)
Post #: 57
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:24:20 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Orm Scotland will have to apply to join the EU. Spain for one will not be overly keen to allow them in - after all, how will the Basques react to that?



Even the experts do not seem as sure as this.


Cut from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#European_Union

Roland Vaubel, a member of the Advisory Council to the German Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology, published a paper in May 2013 titled The Political Economy of Secession in the European Union, which stated that Scotland would remain a member of the European Union upon independence. The paper suggested that there would need to be a negotiation between the Scottish Government and the British Government on "how they wished to share the rights and obligations of the predecessor state".

< Message edited by Orm -- 9/16/2014 4:24:45 PM >


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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 58
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:34:44 PM   
warspite1


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Everything else I've read has suggested otherwise. But then it's the EU, they are probably making up as they go along.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 59
RE: Scots Are they free - 9/16/2014 3:38:49 PM   
VPaulus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
But then it's the EU, they are probably making up as they go along.

Exactly. That's what they have been doing nowadays.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 60
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