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RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal

 
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RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 6:16:45 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

That's irrelevant because the number of games sold on Matrix and size of their install bases versus that of Steam has no bearing on how intrusive the DRM is. If Matrix was the exclusive retailer of Max Payne 3 you'd balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive too.


(in reply to t001001001)
Post #: 31
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 7:05:46 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

That's irrelevant because the number of games sold on Matrix and size of their install bases versus that of Steam has no bearing on how intrusive the DRM is. If Matrix was the exclusive retailer of Max Payne 3 you'd balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive too.




And what happens if you lose the "scan disk"?

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If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

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Post #: 32
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 7:45:52 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Well, it always comes back to if you lose this or that but the main issue is the way Steam "forces" one to register and install their client. Matrixgames doesn't do that and I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games. If you want to play an install kids games thas fine. I guess steam might be useful for that. But, atm I have nothing that size I need to store on my harddrive or flashdrive. As I said I have "every" Matrixgame game stored all in one place on 3 different media sources. You try doing that with your idea and way of storage. You'll have a whole sever box of harddrives and a much larger cost for storage that I will.

As far as DRM? Matrixgames has a very very simple one (a cd key), Steam does based on other developers and publishers I know that. Once again it's the "fact" steam is "required" and must be installed for those games to work and run the first time you install and try to play them. Matrixgames on the otherhand only require you to download them,(no client to install no forced installations of an unwanted client and you don't even have to register to buy the game from them) Steam is "nosey" Matrixgames is not. You have no idea what Steam installs on your computer when you install that client. You just take it for granted that Steam is an honest company. lol Like EA right? lol

Unfortunately the only games I've ever need steam for were the later releases of the Total War series of games. But, after this last release of Rome 2 I won't have to even worry about that anymore. The only games I have on there I would hate to lose is Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings II.

Of course I will admit to using steam but only for their $ 4 games mostly and of course a few of those Total War games that "required" steam. I would never dedicate my entire library of games to steam though and most especially ones I paid higher than $20 for. I do not like steam I will never like steam and I will never trust steam to a certain degree. But because they really have a monopoly I don't have much of a choice. I'm not 100% sure of this but I think you need to install the steam client even to download a demo; a fricking demo.

Oh there is one more game I got screwed on.. (by Paradox no less) they sold games of CKII on gamersgate when it first came out and you didn't need steam. I paid the full amount and bought it on Gamersgate. Then several weeks or months down the road they renigged on that site and you "HAD" to get all future patches from steam and you "HAD" to have a steam client on your computer to play it and download it from that point onward. Gotta love Paradox and the way they screw customers. Can't believe bairdlander has such a love for them.

Now, let's bring up some other things that have happened along the way not so much about steam but what could happen if something happened to steam. GOG.com a few years back took the site down for several days and no one, not anyone had access to their games or downloads while that site was down. We got no warning or anything. Just one day it was basically gone. But, the point here is all those games we bought on GOG we had no access to the download page for days. So if one hadn't backed up the setup.exe file (like I always do here, there, everywhere I can) those people that had bought games and use GOG specifially for storage just like many do steam would have been SOL for days. Of course eventually GoG came back up but we didn't have any reason there or why beforehand of why they disappeared.

Next scenario: Direct 2 Drive basically went bankrupt and out of business. What happened to our games? Well, here was their deal. They didn't open all those games up without DRM for us they sold us to GAMEFLY and GAMEFLY "forced" us to download their "client" (just like steam does) and then we could have access to our games from Direct 2 Drive. Now you might think that is fair but just like Steam I do not like GAMEFLY and do not like installing another intrusive client on my system. Do you recall Starforce? Surely you know the mess they created with their intrusive DRM scheme.

We are losing our freedoms of choice. There's too many blind lemmings online today. There's not a lot of people I've come in contact with that wants to read those EULA's. I think some people click that accept button like it was just a formality and don't even realize what they are agreeing too.

I only have a few years left, but if some people don't stop think and listen they are going to be in for a world of hurt someday when finally one of these "major" distribution sites does go out of business or bankrupt. Just food for thought. I'm not worried about it really because I can see the light at the end of the tunnel pretty clearly. I haven't been in business for 40 years and not learn a thing or two.

For Matrixgames and Slitherine though. Keep up the good work. Stay out of the steam and other distribution sites DRM schemes and requirements as long as you can. I'll continue to buy direct from you guys and stay far far away from steam. (Unless you have a $4.99 game on there I like)

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 33
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 8:13:17 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games.


My point was that the only reason Matrix gets to skate by on "you can back-up all your installers!" is because the grognard wargaming genre is so incredibly small in terms of number of games and small in terms of literal hard drive size requirements.

It's an objective fact that a publisher can release a game on Steam whose DRM is lighter than what even Matrix uses - the fact that there are too many and too large games to all keep on a secondary drive is largely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice if we actually had so many wargames to play around with that the prospect of keeping all of their Matrix installers started to become onerous?

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 34
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 9:13:56 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games.


My point was that the only reason Matrix gets to skate by on "you can back-up all your installers!" is because the grognard wargaming genre is so incredibly small in terms of number of games and small in terms of literal hard drive size requirements.

It's an objective fact that a publisher can release a game on Steam whose DRM is lighter than what even Matrix uses - the fact that there are too many and too large games to all keep on a secondary drive is largely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice if we actually had so many wargames to play around with that the prospect of keeping all of their Matrix installers started to become onerous?


How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/18/2014 10:17:07 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 35
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/18/2014 9:14:32 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Yeah but that's like IF's and But's.

If IF's and BUT's were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas.

Thing is though we can argue back n forth (as we usuaully do on this subject) and you won't convince anyone to cross sides. The subject comes up once about every 3 to 6 months and Iain comes in or one of the moderators and closes the thread and everything cools down for awhile again. It's just one of those issues like Paradox games. Some people like them, some people don't and no matter how much you/I/bairdlander support one or the other side it still remains the same. Some will use steam some will always say it sucks. You know like the ole glass is half full or empty psychology trick? It's all good. Nobody is really losing (yet ) We'll just have to resort to "wait and see".

But, for sure I hope you enjoy it and get what you want out of it. I even enjoy the $4 games out of it. I'm just not worried if I lose them though.....question is are you?

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 36
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 12:25:16 AM   
Greybriar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip



I think this pretty much sums everything up for me. I prefer DRM free and forever for a game. If Matrix and Slitherine (M&S here forward) offer their games on Steam then more power to them. I am thankful and glad that M&S do business the way they do. More options = more happy customers. No need for M&S to become Steam themselves. Let Steam do what they do and let M&S do what they do. If you want to get your M&S games on Steam then go to Steam to get them. But don't burden the rest of us "old farts" to do the same.

QED


+1

I couldn't have put it better myself.

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Post #: 37
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 1:09:06 AM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

Missus Wargamer, if ur trying to 'win friends and influence ppl'; calling a pack of grown ass men discussing client software: "boys", prolly isn't going to get u very far Maybe it's just me, but when someone calls me "boy", I consider it an insult. But it doesn't matter to the discussion.

-----------


quote:

I'm with you. I'd be curious to know why the people that are locked out of their Steam accounts end up that way.


I think so too, gexmex. I doubt a person getting banned from Steam and losing all their games is "John Q Innocent".


You are irrational (that's my territory by the way) :) It would be irrational if I objected to you referring to me and Rhonda as 'girls'. I suggest you stop thinking of it as an insult. Because if I wanted to insult you, I can do a lot better normally :) Anyone 40 and under is a kid to me by the way. Just mentioning that. And no I have no idea how old you are.

(in reply to t001001001)
Post #: 38
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:47:19 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

There are DRM schemes available that do not require the Steam client at all past the very first installation.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 39
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:53:30 AM   
JFalk68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip



It's not really the same thing, I am talking about every single game Matrix has made moved to a Steam like portal/app. A portal that screams wargaming and nothing else. It's all or nothing for me :)

There are so many positives going for Steam, it will update your game for you whenever a patch is released...no addional keys or codes to enter and you can configure to update with beta patches as well. It's all automatic. I have been a Steam member for years and I have never had a problem. People have been banned from Steam, just like people have been banned from forums and online gaming. Because they have been banned doesn't mean the Steam is bad, Steam was taking action against some people trying to do something they are not supposed to. Steam is hugely successful, they are working on Steam machines and all types of other stuff and they are making tons of money.

The guys who dont like Steam are like people who refuse to have direct deposit for their paychecks, they want a that actual check in their hands. People against Steam are Crypto-Fascists! These 2 guys are against Steam as well!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-9R6NCZ0A


< Message edited by JFalk68 -- 9/19/2014 5:11:29 AM >

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 40
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 4:33:32 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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From: The Divided Nations of Earth
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JFalk68

The guys who dont like Steam are like people who refuse to have direct deposit for their paychecks, they want a that actual check in their hands. People against Steam are Crypto-Fascists! These 2 guys are against Steam as well!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-9R6NCZ0A



And here I thought people in favor of steam were "crypto-fascists". I must have had it all wrong.

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Post #: 41
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 4:46:59 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

There are DRM schemes available that do not require the Steam client at all past the very first installation.


What do you mean by "after the very first installation"? Does that mean if I lose my HD and have to reinstall the games I don't need to put the steam client on my HD the second time in order to retrieve the game? I thought the Steam client software needs to at least be present to install a game. I have the Dawn of War II series and it won't let me install on a new machine from the box alone. I actually have to be hooked up to Steam and running their client in order to install. What is an example of a Steam game which doesn't require the Steam client for later installations?

Or do you mean I can remove the Steam client from my computer if I want to after the installation process and the game will still work? Or do you simply mean to say that you don't need to be connected to the Internet in order to play these games?

_____________________________


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Post #: 42
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 6:29:09 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
What do you mean by "after the very first installation"? Does that mean if I lose my HD and have to reinstall the games I don't need to put the steam client on my HD the second time in order to retrieve the game? I thought the Steam client software needs to at least be present to install a game. I have the Dawn of War II series and it won't let me install on a new machine from the box alone. I actually have to be hooked up to Steam and running their client in order to install. What is an example of a Steam game which doesn't require the Steam client for later installations?

Or do you mean I can remove the Steam client from my computer if I want to after the installation process and the game will still work? Or do you simply mean to say that you don't need to be connected to the Internet in order to play these games?


I tried to explain this in my previous posts, so let's try again:

1. I buy Crusader Kings from Steam
2. I open up Steam, install Crusader Kings
3. After the install finishes, I copy Crusader Kings from its Steam folder to its own folder, say in C:\Games
4. I uninstall Steam
5. I can still play Crusader Kings "forever", by running the executable directly
6. I upload the Crusader Kings folder to Dropbox, or copy it to an external hard-drive, or burn it onto a CD/DVD, whatever, so that I have a back-up copy even if Steam shuts down and/or my computer catches on fire

Not all games work like this, but whether they do or they don't is up to the publisher/developer when they have Valve put their game up on Steam. You can make the argument that Steam's DRM is more restrictive than this for an already-existing game, but not when you're hypothesizing what a publisher might do if it ever wanted to jump onto Steam.

"But wait! You still need Steam to install your game for the very first time!" - yes, but that's not really different from still needing to download an installer from Matrix's site for the very first time, unless you have a complete aversion to the Steam client for whatever reason. If Valve goes bankrupt and shuts down in the minutes/hours between you purchasing your product and actually installing it on your computer, you'd be just as out of luck if Matrix shut down in the minutes/hours between you purchasing your product and downloading the installer.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 43
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 6:56:01 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline 		gradenko_2000,

Your core argument seems to state that:
1. It's too expensive and troublesome to store install files for games
2. Publishers can release games with less DRM than Matrix has, so therefore Steam DRM is "easier" on the user.
3. Convenience is worth the loss of privacy and risk of losing everything with one click of a Steam employee's "ban" button.

So let's address those, shall we?

On the first point, an external drive goes for about $160 for 4TB. Given your example that any user would balk at backing up - Max Payne 3 weighing in at 35GB - what's the cost for storage? Um... about $1.40. That's it. That's how much you need to pay to safeguard your install files against a disaster. That's onerous?

On the second. I see no proof to this statement. Requiring Steam to install the game is in itself DRM. Unless they allow you to download a full install package that is not dependent on Steam in any way, you're STILL tied by Steam DRM. And if you do manage to back up the files such that you can play the game without Steam - you're very likely violating your terms of service with Steam. Well done! Just because you CAN doesn't mean you're ALLOWED to.

On the third, you're giving very little value to privacy. Steam's use of player's private data has been an ongoing battle in Europe. If you don't care that Big Brother is watching, then I'm sure you're happy. I'm not.

But the third goes against any basic business principle of mitigating one's losses in a disaster. I can't imagine any businessman would happily sign a deal where the other party has carte blanche to seize everything he's bought. But that's where you stand with Steam - you're trusting entirely in their integrity to continue to allow you to access the games you've paid for.

Would you like to take the opportunity to retract another baseless statement that you can't support with a single iota of evidence?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex
I doubt a person getting banned from Steam and losing all their games is "John Q Innocent".


I can't say what justice is like where you live, but where I'm from, presumption of innocence is a pillar of our judicial system. But you're presuming guilt with no facts and no accusation from Steam (in my example link).

Are you from Ferguson? Their policing standard seems to assume guilt.. but hold on, only if you're black...

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 44
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 7:08:07 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
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From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
I tried to explain this in my previous posts, so let's try again:


Your actions seem to be suspiciously in violation of Steam ToS. Have you cleared it with Steam, that you aren't in violation? You seem to be abusing a loophole.

Castellon, a Paradox admin, seems to suggest that your actions are in violation (ref post #3).


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 45
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 7:44:35 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JFalk68

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip



It's not really the same thing, I am talking about every single game Matrix has made moved to a Steam like portal/app. A portal that screams wargaming and nothing else. It's all or nothing for me :)

There are so many positives going for Steam, it will update your game for you whenever a patch is released...no addional keys or codes to enter and you can configure to update with beta patches as well. It's all automatic. I have been a Steam member for years and I have never had a problem. People have been banned from Steam, just like people have been banned from forums and online gaming. Because they have been banned doesn't mean the Steam is bad, Steam was taking action against some people trying to do something they are not supposed to. Steam is hugely successful, they are working on Steam machines and all types of other stuff and they are making tons of money.

The guys who dont like Steam are like people who refuse to have direct deposit for their paychecks, they want a that actual check in their hands. People against Steam are Crypto-Fascists! These 2 guys are against Steam as well!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-9R6NCZ0A



In reference to "bannings from Steam" you are leaving out one important "fact" when steam bans an account it's the whole account and you lose your whole library of games. When an offsite forum bans you you only lose access to that forum. You maintain and keep all the games and your game account just like normal. There's a big difference there. Steam "owns" you and your games. Matrixgames for example just owns your forum account rights to use. Not being able to say some silly words or trolling is one thing, not being able to play ones games one has spent a lot of money on is another. I'm glad you brought that up about banning as that is another bad feature about Steam.

And if we're getting into namecalling of what some types of consumers are then those that have brown noses for steam I would say are "lemmings", lambs for slaughter, a pied piper's dream, etc. etc.

In relation to "auto-updates", that is not always what a gamer wants to do as well and setting the program not to update a game doesn't keep steam from updating "core" elements that have been patched in a game. It won't update simple features of a patch but if there is a core update your hands are tied and you "must" update. In a regular world where you select when a patch is updated that kind of stuff doesn't happen. You have a choice to stay with a certain patch, steam doesn't give you that choice with a "core" update. I'll give you an example. Slitherine did an update for Spartan years ago from v1.013 to v1.017 when Troy came out. The v1.017 version of the game dumbed down the AI in Spartan. I did not want this AI update so I had the choice not to update to v1.017 and kept playing v1.013. Steam wouldn't have allowed this and since it was a core update I would have had to update to v1.017 without choice.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 9/19/2014 8:45:57 AM >

(in reply to JFalk68)
Post #: 46
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 7:59:37 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

There are DRM schemes available that do not require the Steam client at all past the very first installation.


What do you mean by "after the very first installation"? Does that mean if I lose my HD and have to reinstall the games I don't need to put the steam client on my HD the second time in order to retrieve the game? I thought the Steam client software needs to at least be present to install a game. I have the Dawn of War II series and it won't let me install on a new machine from the box alone. I actually have to be hooked up to Steam and running their client in order to install. What is an example of a Steam game which doesn't require the Steam client for later installations?

Or do you mean I can remove the Steam client from my computer if I want to after the installation process and the game will still work? Or do you simply mean to say that you don't need to be connected to the Internet in order to play these games?


What he means is one copies the "whole" game after installation and stores it to the side and you can play those games offline. There is a feature on steam for that. What he dooesn't seem to understand is if he ever has to install these games (even in saved folders or files) as he's stating onto a "new" harddrive or computer that steam will not recognize them and the DRM (providing the games have this DRM) will not reinstall without the Steam client in the registry.
Now backing up steam game files on the "same" computer and harddrives clearly will work. But, that is not the same thing as being able to reINSTALL them on a new computer or harddrive. The Steam client HAS to be in the registry for those games. If not, while it may install it won't run because the Steam security feature will kick in in the code of the game before installation and it won't be there in his lil saved folder or file as it is "before" the installation is complete the 1st time that this DRM check is made.

Think of it like the old days when you had to have the CD in the drive for some games to work. It's the same way with steam on "some" games, mostly triple A titles. That steam client has to be there on the initial download and install. Steam just removed the need to have the cd in the drive all the time even after installation. But, it did not remove the need to have the cd(steam client) present on all future reinstalls on a new computer or harddrive.

Now about his analogy about steam or matrixgames going bankrupt on the same day at the same time he is partically correct. The MAIN difference is you only lose that ONE game from Matrixgames, in the case of Steam you lose ALL of them (no steam client in the future no steam games that require that DRM scheme of theirs). Not to forget to mention the storage required to store those games he's talking about in the millions of gigabytes compared to Matrixgames compressed executables.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 9/19/2014 9:07:32 AM >

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 47
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 9:14:56 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
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quote:

1. It's too expensive and troublesome to store install files for games


I never made this claim. What I said was that in order to store or back-up a game bought from Matrix, you need to keep the installer. In order to store or back-up a game bought from Steam, you need to keep the whole installed game folder (and under the provision that the game in question does not use Steam's DRM protection, which is true for some games but not for others).

You're absolutely correct that storage is cheap, so the distinction of "installers are much smaller than whole installed game folders" is either not a problem in the sense that it should theoretically be affordable to store as many games as you want, even as whole installed games, or it's irrelevant because the market-size of the genre has no bearing on the topic.

quote:

But the third goes against any basic business principle of mitigating one's losses in a disaster. I can't imagine any businessman would happily sign a deal where the other party has carte blanche to seize everything he's bought. But that's where you stand with Steam - you're trusting entirely in their integrity to continue to allow you to access the games you've paid for.


Again, under the provision that the game in question does not need to be started while Steam is running, Steam cannot "seize everything he's bought" if he undergoes a back-up process.

quote:

Your actions seem to be suspiciously in violation of Steam ToS. Have you cleared it with Steam, that you aren't in violation? You seem to be abusing a loophole.


The post outright says that CK does not use Steam copyright protection.

quote:

What he dooesn't seem to understand is if he ever has to install these games (even in saved folders or files) as he's stating onto a "new" harddrive or computer that steam will not recognize them and the DRM (providing the games have this DRM) will not reinstall without the Steam client in the registry.


I really don't know how to say this in any other terms: there are games that will literally start and be fully playable by double-clicking on their executable even if the computer does not and has not ever been connected to Steam.

Yes, you cannot install a game without getting on Steam, but that just changes whatever it is you copy from a .exe to a whole folder.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 48
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 10:24:39 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, you cannot install a game without getting on Steam, but that just changes whatever it is you copy from a .exe to a whole folder


There you finally admitted it. You 'must' have the steam client to install the game the first time before you can do any of that saving you are doing. With matrixgames and other off steam sites this is not required. You do NOT need any "clients" that are intrusive and have to be on your computer. That's the point and the whole point of why steam is bad. It forces you to use it to install your games the 1st time. Thanks for clearing that up and admitting that you were wrong.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 49
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 10:33:10 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think I ever claimed that you could be completely free of Steam as a client. Post 39 and post 43 makes that very clear.

My point was that you wouldn't necessarily be locked out of your games just because you were banned, or just because you don't have an internet connection, or just because you don't want to keep logging into your Steam account, or just because want to reformat your hard drive.

A statement such as "so long as you keep the serial key, it doesn't matter what happens to Matrix. If they don't like you and ban you, you can still play and re-install at your pleasure" is equally applicable to Steam if you replace "serial key" with "install folder" and remove "re-install at your pleasure" (because you don't even need to do the latter!)

So yes, I freely admit it - you have to log onto Steam at a minimum of one time to install your game. I'm not contending that.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 50
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 1:43:43 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Steam sucks. Straight up. Thank goodness Matrix has avoided that soul-sucking death spiral. I (and many others I know) will never buy another game on Steam under any circumstances.


I 2nd this ^^^ post. I like being able to get my games here "without" having to jump thru hoops with DRM schemes. Storing your games here is just as easy just takes a bit more intelligence is all.


Then you've never dealt with STEAM for there are no hoops to jump thru at all. You put your money on the table, download the product and you're done. That's it. It's easier than going to the store and hoping there's a boxed version on the shelf or ordering online and waiting days and days to get it unless you pay a huge premium for 1 day delivery.

Your talking STEAM about like you talked HOI3 and Brazil aaatoysandmore. In other words out the nether parts of your body.








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Post #: 51
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 1:52:28 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline 		One of the nice things about the Slitherine Group method combined with their offering the Steam keys free to the purchaser, is the purchaser can install via their Slitherine Group serial, register the Steam key and allow family to share access to their Steam account. It has permitted me to demo a lot of my otherwise dull wargames to a friend of mine who likely would not be interested otherwise. Still isn't entirely interested now though. But at least I can play him a wargame he otherwise would not be interested in getting, and do it the equal of hotseat while not actually hotseat.

Otherwise, none of my Steam keys are likely to ever be worth anything to me genuinely.

Just s second place is rarely as thrilling as first place. And Steam will always be second place.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 52
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 1:54:12 PM   
t001001001

 

Posts: 322
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

There are so many positives going for Steam, it will update your game for you whenever a patch is released..


So far that's the only complaint I have w/ Steam. I don't want any of my games automatically updated. I normally wait for other ppl to test a new patch before I install it myself - which means sometimes I decide I don't want it. Also, sometimes I'm running mods that I don't want interfered w/. For example, Kerbal space sim will update w/o me wanting it to, then I have to upgrade mechjeb and any other mods I was running w/ that version.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 53
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 2:11:19 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		My main put offs with Steam are two fold, however, I'm admittedly not an expert on Steam and their policies or whatever. I only have about 5 games from Steam and they all seem to be relatively DRM intensive as even though I have the hard copies of them sitting on my shelf I have to have the Steam client on my computer in order to install or even play them.

1. What if Steam ever goes belly up. Unless a game is relatively "free standing" (meaning it can be installed with only what is contained in the copy I possess independently of Steam) then I'm out of luck with my game.

2. I admittedly don't like a lot of "stuff" on my computer. It annoys me (for example) when I purchase a new computer and the salesman asks me if I want them to remove some of the preinstalled "bloat ware" in order to improve performance. My response is, "You actually  mean that I need to undo what these companies are doing in order to buy a better performing computer???" Maybe I'm wrong but to me Steam client is just another piece of software I have to install on my computer using up resources that will slow things down, even if only a little. I don't want it on my computer and I probably don't "need" it strictly speaking. I am a bit of a "purist" I suppose in that I get frustrated when companies want to put things on my computer that will tend to eat up resources that don't need to be eaten up. However, I realize there is a lot of gray area in what is "bloat ware" and what is "necessary".

I guess I just don't sympathize with those who would want Matrix to become more like Steam. I can see where some may wish Steam could be more like Matrix but Steam is what it is and Matrix does its own thing which is very generous and accommodating in my personal opinion. Now I know the OP likes the fact that s/he doesn't need to manually install updates, that Steam does all that for him or her. That's a plus but I can't tell you how many times I have been frustrated by opening up a game to play for the first time in a while in order to see a dialogue that tells me I must wait an hour for updates to finish. I am perfectly fine with installing updates myself. In fact I prefer to have a hard copy of an update so that again if Steam ever goes permanently offline I can update my games with the files I've saved on a back up drive.

In a sense I have some responsibility to keep and preserve the software I purchase. So the freedom to have that software free of intrusive "bloat ware" and other "gimmicks" also involves a certain responsibility on my part to maintain my files and use them legitimately. I suppose that makes me a bit individualistic. Most of my life has been marked by a certain gravitation toward independence and autonomy. Relative self sufficiency is something that I find myself drawn toward. I don't trust large bureaucratic corporations to handle my life for me. They make mistakes too and when they make mistakes it's my word versus theirs. To me Matrix and Slitherine cut the umbilical cord between me and them whenever they sell me a product. All they ask is that I use their product in a legitimate way. I respect that M&S put trust in me as a consumer to behave ethically on my own. I'm thankful for that. I will probably always be a loyal M&S customer so long as that relationship exists. Yes I make mistakes too and if there is no legitimate resolution between me and M&S then I will also respect that M&S have legitimate reasons for denying me if my request is not justifiable. I have yet to encounter an instance where M&S have denied me what I thought a legitimate claim of action on their part. In fact my personal experience has been that they go above and beyond on many occasions to accommodate my own mistakes.

For example I accidentally deleted a copy of a game on my back up hard drive. I was prepared to pay the price of my own stupidity and asked in the forum if someone would alert me when that game went on sale because I was going to willingly repurchase it. VPaulus who works with M&S voluntarily chimed in immediately that they had a copy of my sales receipt and that I could simply request to reset my DL for it. I didn't even ask for that. I was prepared to purchase another copy. That is "above and beyond" in my book. That is the mark of a great company.

Maybe it's a different philosophy of life or something but M&S fit my lifestyle of trying to be relatively self-sufficient pretty darn well and I am thankful for that. Granted that is not a way of life for everyone. Some people enjoy the connectedness of being "plugged in" to a kind of cooperative co-dependence on each other. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not a complete "Island" either in that respect. I still depend upon family for support. Indeed it's probably better to be more dependent upon each other and have more connections out there to support us but I've always been a bit of a hermit and I'm not very accustomed to the "give and take" that come with strong inter-personal connections. "Give and take" with people I'm not familiar with can be taxing on my energy level because I'm not accustomed to it. It wasn't my choice to be a hermit. I've tried to reach out to others in the past but I've always been very awkward at it and there wasn't much I or anyone else could have done about that. Such is life....although I am trying to change a little to correct the disparity even at age 47. It gets harder and harder to change our habits as we grow older, at least in my experience.

_____________________________


(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 54
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:20:21 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I suppose I just don't see the point of railing against Steam when the current model we've seen is that it's something that's done in conjunction with Slitherine's traditional model, rather than as a replacement for it.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 55
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:26:43 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

Yes, you cannot install a game without getting on Steam, but that just changes whatever it is you copy from a .exe to a whole folder


There you finally admitted it. You 'must' have the steam client to install the game the first time before you can do any of that saving you are doing. With matrixgames and other off steam sites this is not required. You do NOT need any "clients" that are intrusive and have to be on your computer. That's the point and the whole point of why steam is bad. It forces you to use it to install your games the 1st time. Thanks for clearing that up and admitting that you were wrong.






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Post #: 56
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:29:07 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I don't think I ever claimed that you could be completely free of Steam as a client. Post 39 and post 43 makes that very clear.

My point was that you wouldn't necessarily be locked out of your games just because you were banned, or just because you don't have an internet connection, or just because you don't want to keep logging into your Steam account, or just because want to reformat your hard drive.

A statement such as "so long as you keep the serial key, it doesn't matter what happens to Matrix. If they don't like you and ban you, you can still play and re-install at your pleasure" is equally applicable to Steam if you replace "serial key" with "install folder" and remove "re-install at your pleasure" (because you don't even need to do the latter!)

So yes, I freely admit it - you have to log onto Steam at a minimum of one time to install your game. I'm not contending that.

The majority of Steam games do require the Steam client to be running successfully - the API won't start up unless it is. This is not true of all games purchased through Steam, just most.

Cheers

Pip


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Post #: 57
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:36:09 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
I never made this claim.


Actually, you did - "balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive".

You've refuted every reason for one to balk. So why exactly is the process of backing up so onerous that people are still (without reason) balking?


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Again, under the provision that the game in question does not need to be started while Steam is running, Steam cannot "seize everything he's bought" if he undergoes a back-up process.

...

The post outright says that CK does not use Steam copyright protection.


I'm no lawyer, but I can read.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement
2. LICENSES

A. General Software License

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Software onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms) in accordance with this Agreement, including the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software. To make use of the Software, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

G. Restrictions on Use of Software

You may not use the Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions, and to make personal, non-commercial use of your Subscriptions, except as otherwise permitted by this Agreement or applicable Subscription Terms. Except as otherwise permitted under this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use), or under applicable law notwithstanding these restrictions, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, publish, distribute, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Software or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.


As I read it:
A. Unless it specifically says so, you're REQUIRED to use Steam to play any Steam game. Does CK explicitly state you don't? No, then you're in violation of your subscriber agreement.
Gi. Again, requirement for explicit dispensation from any SA clause is required. So I ask again, does it say anywhere in CK that you're allowed to do what you did?
Gii. You've copied it. You're in violation.

Go on and ask on the Steam tech support forums. I'm quite sure that they'll tell you that you've violated your contract. Maybe if you're lucky, you won't be perma-banned.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Yes, you cannot install a game without getting on Steam, but that just changes whatever it is you copy from a .exe to a whole folder.


You're advocating express violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement (copying the software).

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 58
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 3:59:12 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, you did - "balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive".

You've refuted every reason for one to balk. So why exactly is the process of backing up so onerous that people are still (without reason) balking?


Me, post 25: "Back-up the installer!", you might say. Ok, then why can't I back-up a folder-copy of Papers Please as well? Hell, why can't I upload a folder-copy of Papers Please to Dropbox to protect myself against a hardware failure the same way you'd upload WITE's installer (and its latest patch, and its serial key on a text file) to achieve the same effect?

aaatoysandmore, post 26: True, I agree with that. But, let me ask you this. Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

Me, post 31: That's irrelevant because the number of games sold on Matrix and size of their install bases versus that of Steam has no bearing on how intrusive the DRM is. If Matrix was the exclusive retailer of Max Payne 3 you'd balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive too.



So yes, we are in fact in agreement: backing up files is not onerous. It's aaatoysandmore that was making the claim that the ability to play certain Steam-bought games without Steam is not an advantage because there are lots of games and the games are large, meanwhile Matrix's installers are small. I was merely pointing out that if it he thought it was difficult to back up a multi-gigabyte install folder, then it would be just as difficult to back-up a marginally smaller multi-gigabyte installer.exe that was sold under a traditional retail model.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 59
RE: Matrix needs a Steam like portal - 9/19/2014 4:05:15 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
So yes, we are in fact in agreement: backing up files is not onerous.


Ta for the details - it's admittedly hard to follow some exchanges and sometimes, as in this case, I read things horribly wrong.

Interesting line you draw my eye to -

"Ok, then why can't I back-up a folder-copy of Papers Please as well? Hell, why can't I upload a folder-copy of Papers Please to Dropbox to protect myself against a hardware failure the same way you'd upload WITE's installer (and its latest patch, and its serial key on a text file) to achieve the same effect?" - post 25

Because it's a violation of your Steam Subscriber Agreement.

_____________________________

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Post #: 60
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