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Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 8:52:12 AM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Several turns I have ground units at base Kokoda who are in need of replacements. Several turns there is more than 2 x supply required at the base (according to 16.4. manual that is condition for ground units to take replacements). Units have replacements on. There are enough devices in the pool. Still the replacements are not taken.

I cant figure why the units take no replacement and i will appreciate explanation. Thanks.

EDIT: Now the supplies are only 400 more than 2 x base requirement. Previous turn I moved some fighters in so the supply requirement rose. Few turns ago there was supply requirement only around 1.000 and around 3.000 supplies at the base.




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< Message edited by kkoovvoo -- 10/5/2014 10:49:42 AM >

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RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 8:54:13 AM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		unit:




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RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 12:23:20 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		There are a lot of variables that determine replacement rate:
Amount of supply
Leader ratings
base size (Port+AF)
proximity to other bases and their size
proximity to Command HQ
other units competing for same devices
proximity to enemy

You want to maximize everything on the list except the last two, those you want to minimize. There might even be a few more variables involved, but we would need Alfred to stop in. He might even be able to rank order them.

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Post #: 3
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 12:38:00 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Pax said it all.... Rebuilding is best done in rear areas, well stocked with supply and with many large supporting bases..

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Post #: 4
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 12:39:12 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		My money is on other units competing for the same devices.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 5
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 3:50:55 PM   
1EyedJacks


Posts: 2244
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: The Eastern Sierras
Status: offline 		Try putting them in combat mode. Rest mode helps drop fatigue/Disruption and increase morale. I think in Combat mode the unit has a stronger priority for replacements.



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Post #: 6
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 5:21:28 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		kkoovvoo, check if you have any units in San Francisco taking replacements. SF can give dozens of devices to units each turn. In one of my tests, San Francisco gave 56 devices to several units there in one day. I don't know how the code prioritises cases when several units want the same devices. Maybe it is unit ID or location? Maybe the units in San Fran get AA guns first and constantly empty your pools?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/5/2014 6:24:29 PM >

(in reply to 1EyedJacks)
Post #: 7
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 7:29:00 PM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Thx for all replies guys.

Paxmondo:
I will try to improve what i can from your list - smuggle in more supplies and replace a leader (with good admin skill). Other conditions i am unable to improve.

Cannon: You are generally right, but this is desperate fight for Port Moresby, no capacity to move unit out - no transport planes on Allied side.

Yaab: This is DBB Guadalcanal scenario, so no SF on map. As (+) next to each device indicates, there are enough of each device in the pool.

1Eyed: The unit was in combat mode previous turns, only recently i switched to rest as i hoped i might help.

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Post #: 8
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/5/2014 10:48:40 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Things may have changed, but if I remember right, being in rest mode gives a unit priority for replacements. But the game has changed quite a few times since I was working on it.

Bill

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(in reply to kkoovvoo)
Post #: 9
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/6/2014 5:28:31 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The OP keeps on asserting that the "+" sign next to the device means that there is enough of each device in the pools.  This is simply not true. The "+" sign only indicates that

(a) the device is not stockpiled in the pools, and
(b) there is at least a single device in the pools

Accordingly it is a very basic supply curve indicator and says absolutely nothing about the demand curve for the different devices.

Nor is the constant assertion that sufficient supply is present at the base necessarily correct.  The screenshot only shows an estimate of required supply based on the just completed turn actions.  It takes no account of the actual amount of supply which will be consumed in the following turn before the device replacement supply consumption routine.

Incorrect assessments always lead to incorrect answers.



The LCU device replacement routine is closely aligned with, but is also different from, the LCU device upgrade routine.  I address below only the device replacement routine.  A full understanding of the subject also needs to understand the device upgrades and overland supply movement routines which have been addressed in other threads.



Global Factors

1.  Devices which are set to stockpile in the pools will not be distributed to LCUs.

2.  LCU fragments cannot receive replacements.

3.  Only LCUs which have toggled "Replacements On" will check to see if they meet the conditions to receive replacements.

4.  There is a "replacement cycle" for each LCU which varies depending on the applicable conditions and random die rolls (see below for details).

5.  At the purchase source there must be sufficient supply to purchase the devices.  The purchase price reduces the supply amount held at the purchase source.

6.  A valid supply path from base to LCU of >49 is required for the base to be the purchase source.  If less, then the LCU itself becomes the purchase source.

7.  Device replacements are distributed from the pools in the following order

  • nationality
  • base
  • unit ID

starting with lowest number



Purchase Sources

Each turn, but subject to randomness, an LCU has a three step loop to determine which purchase sources are available.

1.  The LCU's National Base qualifies if it has (supplies >2x base supplies required) + (100 supply), and the valid supply path to the LCU is >49

2.  Friendly Base qualifies if it has (supplies >2x base supplies required) + (100 supply), and the valid supply path to the LCU is >49.

3.  The LCU itself if it's organic supplies carried = 4x supplies required, and the LCU is not located at a friendly base

Almost always the purchase source will be a base, in particular the friendly base which is accommodating the LCU, as LCUs normally retain organically only a buffer of 10 supply above their "supplies required" listed total.  Usually a LCU will only meet the third loop of above when

  • it cannot trace a valid supply path back to a land base
  • it is with an invasion fleet (with beaucoup of back up supplies) and is being landed on an enemy base (usually atoll)/non base hex
  • it is the start of a scenario


4.  Subject to meeting both the supply requirements and the valid supply path, there is no limitation as to the number of bases which can act as purchase sources.



Replacement Cycle

1.  If the purchase source is a base, the replacement cycle is 7 days BUT note discussion in point 4 below.

2.  If the purchase source is a base with 20k supply and the LCU is in "rest" mode at that base, the replacement cycle is 1 day.

3.  If the purchase source is the LCU itself, the replacement cycle is 3 days.

4.  It is important to note that all three steps in the "purchase sources" loop are checked.  This means that even though the replacement cycle is 7 days (subject randomness) if the purchase source is a base (except when the LCU is in "rest mode" at a 20k supply base), because the last check is that of the LCU itself as the purchase source, the replacement cycle is reset to 3 days.  Back in February 2011 michaelm speculated that the 7 day cycle specified in the code was originally in order to be consistent with the replacement cycle of air units but that at some point in time it was determined it was more appropriate to have a shorter replacement cycle for LCUs.




In practical terms, the LCU device replacement cycle is 3 days, or 1 day if the LCU is in "rest mode".  However, this does not mean that replacement devices will be distributed so regularly due to randomness and the global factors listed above.  To quote michaelm from 11 May 2014:
"The available supply at a base (in supply range) is the only requirement to take replacement devices at a base."
 
The rate at which this occurs is modified by certain factors but ultimately you get or do not get replacement devices based on supply availability.

As is usually the case, the above is put together from various dev posts.  The following thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2713481&mpage=1&key=replacements�

is the best single dev source on the subject.

Alfred

Edit: Further clarified the replacement cycle for condition 2.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 10/6/2014 2:22:00 PM >

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 10
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/6/2014 7:21:31 AM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Hi Alfred,

Thx for reply. Your post was very helpful (i tried to google „ground unit replacement“ and not „LCU replacement“ – thats why i failed to find that useful link).

I simplified meaning of „+“, but there is plenty of everything in pool (28 x 90mm AA gun, 37 x 40 mm Bofors AA gun, 318 x 0,5inch AA MG, 110 x radar....).

So the problem must be insufficient supplies. I will try to get more supplies in and to decrease supply requirements by moving some air groups out.


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Post #: 11
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/6/2014 1:19:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		I've never really understood replacements away from a base. Thanks, Alfred.

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Post #: 12
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/6/2014 1:33:17 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kkoovvoo

Hi Alfred,

Thx for reply. Your post was very helpful (i tried to google „ground unit replacement“ and not „LCU replacement“ – thats why i failed to find that useful link).

I simplified meaning of „+“, but there is plenty of everything in pool (28 x 90mm AA gun, 37 x 40 mm Bofors AA gun, 318 x 0,5inch AA MG, 110 x radar....).

So the problem must be insufficient supplies. I will try to get more supplies in and to decrease supply requirements by moving some air groups out.



Searching the forum is more of an art than a science. When it takes me several hours to research a topic it is usually because I have to try out several different keywords. That plus reading all the associated posts just to eliminate the non relevant ones, then drafting the reply etc.

Both witpqs and wdolson are big supporters of using the Google search engine to search the forum. I personally prefer to use the forum's search engine which although less powerful than Google, does allow for less precision in its query. In this instance the only keyword used was "replacements".

You should reread my post because I have edited it to clarify an important condition which may have been missed. You are going to need to ship in a huge amount of supply into Port Moresby.

Alfred

(in reply to kkoovvoo)
Post #: 13
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/7/2014 3:04:39 PM   
1EyedJacks


Posts: 2244
Joined: 3/12/2006
From: The Eastern Sierras
Status: offline 		I'm wondering if the reason you don't see reinforcements is because you are playing a short scenario and not a campaign... Does the DBB Guadalcanal scenario generate replacements?



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Post #: 14
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/8/2014 10:12:59 AM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

I'm wondering if the reason you don't see reinforcements is because you are playing a short scenario and not a campaign... Does the DBB Guadalcanal scenario generate replacements?




Yes it does, see my post #11


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Post #: 15
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 10/9/2014 3:32:02 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Holy crap Alfred this is by far the most concise post I've seen on this topic. Thank you so much.

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Post #: 16
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 6:39:47 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Thread resurrection.

Alfred, thanks for pointing me to this thread. One question, where can we check nation ID you talk about in "Global Factors", point 7?

EDIT: Strange, but the OP never told us if the AA unit in Moresby finally took those replacements.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/10/2020 9:11:36 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 12:09:09 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		It says unit ID, not nationality ID.

Alfred

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 18
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 12:17:06 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		Don't believe in what you see in pools screen. The fact that Device have the same name, doesn't mean that this is the same Device used in LCU.

For example, Japan have FOUR different Sound Detector Devices, each of them upgrading to different Radar Type.

Probably the only sure way to know if you actually have right Device for replacement is in editor.

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 19
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 1:26:29 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It says unit ID, not nationality ID.

Alfred


I meant, do nationalites have their internal order i.e. USA first, USMC second, Chinese third etc. If all nations at start compete for engineer devices, and you enable replacements for hundreds of LCUs from all Allied nations across the map, can one nation i.e. USA empty the pool before LCUs from the last nation (i.e Dutch) get a chance to snatch eng devices?

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Post #: 20
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 3:16:49 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Not really a long term issue.  In the opening weeks anything can experience a shortfall as Allied units tend to be very much understrength.

Most devices are not shared by a large number of nationalities and those which are, generally have very high production rates.  A limited number of British Empire devices run the risk of demand exceeding their production.  Judicious use of pool stockpiling and unit replacement management is appropriate for them.

Alfred 

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 21
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 4:04:13 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I have totally destroyed Japan several times, not an accomplishment since I was Japan, and never once came anywhere near to running out of the pools of shared devices. I never heard of any AFB complaining about it with respect to shared devices.

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Post #: 22
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 4:24:14 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Let's assume the Allied player is reduced in China to only two bases - Chengtu and Chungking. Both bases are besieged by Japs, and both bases have several Chinese corps sitting in them. The Allied player enables Replacements for his units, thus releasing a small pool of Chinese arty: 75th mm field guns, 81mm mortars and 37mm AT guns, alongside the big pool of Chinese rifle squads. Since, per Tracker/Editor, Chengtu has a lower ID number than Chungking, does that mean all arty devices can be snatched completely by units sitting in Chengtu if too many LCUs compete for those guns, with no guns going to Chungking defenders?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/10/2020 4:36:50 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/10/2020 4:36:48 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		That is a different issue to that of post #20.

Of course if demand exceeds supply a shortfall can result.  That is the raison d'etre for allowing stockpiling and switching individual units from accepting replacements.  it is up to the player to manage their logistics.

Plus you are overlooking the cost and supply flows.  Search for my posts on that.

Alfred  

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Post #: 24
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/11/2020 12:24:03 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It says unit ID, not nationality ID.

Alfred


I meant, do nationalites have their internal order i.e. USA first, USMC second, Chinese third etc. If all nations at start compete for engineer devices, and you enable replacements for hundreds of LCUs from all Allied nations across the map, can one nation i.e. USA empty the pool before LCUs from the last nation (i.e Dutch) get a chance to snatch eng devices?

I would think it should be the same order that LCUs line up when they are together in a hex - USMC, USA, Australian, NZ, Dutch, British & Commonwealth, Indian, Canadian, Soviet and Chinese. (Not sure if that list is absolutely right, or where to put Philippine troops).

EDIT: That list is for combat units. Keep in mind that there is another order going on: HQs first, then infantry, armour, and artillery, then support units. I am not sure if the replacement cycle by nationality uses this functional ordering or skips over to get all the units for each nationality before looking at the next nationality.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 5/11/2020 12:30:56 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/14/2020 1:48:20 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

I am facing the same issue as OP, but I think I have found the answer.

I have an LCU in Yenan. It is December 1941, and the LCU is the only Chinese unit taking replacements now. Yet, three turns have passed and the LCU didn't draw a single device. Yenan is a base in the north with few supplies, and cannot gather x 3 supplies needed. It has x 2 supplies needed (1800 need, 3900 gathered). Alfred talks about bases being elligible to send replacements if the base has x 2 supplies +100. But why this number ? Every base on the map tries to gather supplies needed x 3. Looking at the local economies, Port Moresby is as isolated as Yenan - without an outside source (ships, aircraft) you cannot gather enough supplies. And I have no probelm getting replacements in bases which have supplies needed x 3.

Seems the formula Alfred is using is no longer valid.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/14/2020 2:12:28 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/14/2020 10:37:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab



I am facing the same issue as OP, but I think I have found the answer.

I have an LCU in Yenan. It is December 1941, and the LCU is the only Chinese unit taking replacements now. Yet, three turns have passed and the LCU didn't draw a single device. Yenan is a base in the north with few supplies, and cannot gather x 3 supplies needed. It has x 2 supplies needed (1800 need, 3900 gathered). Alfred talks about bases being elligible to send replacements if the base has x 2 supplies +100. But why this number ? Every base on the map tries to gather supplies needed x 3. Looking at the local economies, Port Moresby is as isolated as Yenan - without an outside source (ships, aircraft) you cannot gather enough supplies. And I have no probelm getting replacements in bases which have supplies needed x 3.

Seems the formula Alfred is using is no longer valid.

I think between x2 and x3 supply holdings there is a chance factor applied. "Eligible" does not mean "will".

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Post #: 27
RE: Ground unit replacements - no ALF1 - 5/15/2020 4:21:12 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		That's crazy.

When you cannot get air replacements, the tooltip info hints at the possible causes of such situtation. LCU replacements field has no tooltip, thus you are stuck in the dark just like the OP if base supplies stay constant in the range between x2+100 to x2+900.

EDIT: I have to retract some of my words. There is a tooltip for the replacements field, but it gives you feedback when replacements are delayed. When in a base with x2+100 -x2+900 with no replacements arriving, the tooltip does not show up.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 5/16/2020 9:33:32 AM >

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