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Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules

 
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Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/14/2014 2:14:29 PM   
SunTsu

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		During the last days I have read a bit in the forums since I had the feeling that as SHC player I did some fatal mistakes in my games during turns two, three, four, five..

I have found some interesting discussions about the Lvov pocket in the south that is possible in the game but wasnt possible in reality. By doing the pocket and even going farer east my opponent has eaten up most of my South West Front units. I could break the pocket but in the meantime I have lost almost all units of SW-Front. With these "perfect" first turn moves of the German I didnt see any chance for the Russians in the south since there simply are not enough units and simply not enough new units that arrive. Another effect is that the Russians loose such an amount of people in the very first turns that they cant afford to loose much more if the units shall not be just shells in early 42.

I have read that many players make houserules that allow the Germans go to a specific point only or even not pocketing Lvov in the first turn to prevent the loss of such a big amount of units and have a match on a more realistic base.

On the other hand others have played with the pocket of Lvov and I guess the Russian had chances anyhow... At least in the blizzard they could back land.

The discussions were even before the patch with the mild winter rule. Now I am wondering if playing without any houserules concerning Lvov what results in loosing the SW-Front AND playing with the mild winter rule weakens the Russians too much so that there is not a chance of winning the game in the end.

What do experienced players think about it?
Post #: 1
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/15/2014 12:10:17 PM   
caliJP

 

Posts: 320
Joined: 8/5/2013
From: California
Status: offline 		SunTsu, I think the answer depends a lot on respective player skill levels. If your German opponent has taken the time to understand WITE in depth and script a perfect T1, chances are he is in the top league. So you better be in the same top league or likely a perfect Lvov opening + mild blizzard will lead to you being crushed. But if you are in the top league too, it may not be fatal.
After that it's a matter of taste. I find losing my entire SW front on T1 before I get a chance to move a single unit makes for a boring checkerboard play after that. I would rather lose my entire SW front fighting forward, which I have done before. Same end result, but more fun :)

(in reply to SunTsu)
Post #: 2
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/15/2014 1:16:43 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Hey guys,

Maybe not so boring to bide your time (as sov) and crush the nazi swine when your armies are strong enough. ie avoid combat and run for the first 10/12 turns. :) i think that means smile.

I think you can do this even with Lvov pocket (only to the Tarnopol n/s line). Very, very difficult against the most excellent of axis players.

(in reply to caliJP)
Post #: 3
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/16/2014 2:41:51 PM   
SunTsu

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks for the ansewrs!


quote:

ORIGINAL: caliJP
SunTsu, I think the answer depends a lot on respective player skill levels. If your German opponent has taken the time to understand WITE in depth and script a perfect T1, chances are he is in the top league. So you better be in the same top league or likely a perfect Lvov opening + mild blizzard will lead to you being crushed. But if you are in the top league too, it may not be fatal.


I am definitly NOT in the Champions League

Well, I guess he has read the forums a lot. At least much more than I did and he knows many things. He seems to be the better player. At the end in war only the first step can be planned - then everything also depends on your opponent. But the very start he indeed does perfect turn 1 moves. On the other hand I guess a perfect turn 1 move does not decide the war if you play a setup of rules that doesnt leave the russians without fair chances. I even think for the germans it is hard enough to reach important goals so a good starting move is necessary.

In WitE I think it is not one thing that decides the match. But I think the number of things can make decisions.

I am looking for a fair setup. Of course this is not that much easy since it depends on the strengh of the players. But because of the discussions I was wondering if our setup weakens the russians so much that the germans will win anyway. I will think about what to do.

At the moment I am wondering if a deal like that would be fair for both sides:

1. Germans my do the Lvov pocket but cant go farer that specific hexes in the first two turns (I have read a post with those rules. Would have to check it out on the map. Maybe that would be a pocket that goes south in the east of Tarnopol and leaves Rovno outside). 2. The Germans must not use the tanks of HGM in the south of the Pripyat swamps. 3. The game is running with the mild winter rules because of the 2:1 rule. 4. If playing with pocket and mild winter the russians may put units from the south to the north.

What do you think about a setup like that?


Edit:
The first rule comes from a post before the mild winter setting could be made. So maybe it really is a decisicon between Lvov Pocket and mild winter... Or even to play without extra rules...


< Message edited by SunTsu -- 10/16/2014 7:25:37 PM >

(in reply to caliJP)
Post #: 4
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/16/2014 10:21:30 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		.8

mild winter
no 1v1=2v1
no para drops
No bombing HQ's

GHC players to win have to play next to perfect and the SHC player can not be a good+ player.

One of the biggest mistakes SHC players make is building a horrible Red 2.0 army

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to SunTsu)
Post #: 5
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/17/2014 9:20:42 AM   
SunTsu

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		What do you mean with a "horrible 2.0 Red Army"?

And why wouldnt you bomb HQ and why do you abstain from para drops? Both sides have paratroops so why a rule that forbids using them?

< Message edited by SunTsu -- 10/17/2014 10:35:37 AM >

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 6
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/17/2014 11:12:16 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		There are problems in the current code where if you bomb an HQ that is not stacked with a combat unit there is a huge chance of killing the commander. That should be fixed in 1.08 but it has been a problem in the past. There were some instances where the Axis would have lost over 20 leaders in 1941 due to the HQ bombing. I played once as the Soviets and lost almost 50 leaders by the end of 42 due to the same problem.

The current WitE paradrop rules allow fast response drops that can cut supply lines for entire sections of the front. Because there are very few limits on the drops, many players have imposed agreements over the use of them. Historically the only really effective drops were in December 1941 and some of the Soviet offensives in the Crimea.

A "horrible 2.0 Red Army" is one that can't kick the Axis butt back to Berlin in time. Usually because the Soviets were not able to save sufficient industry in 41/42, ran out of trucks for supply, or just did not build the right mixture for their abilities.


(in reply to SunTsu)
Post #: 7
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/17/2014 2:35:13 PM   
SunTsu

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		Oha... I have thought the problems of killing commanders by excessive HQ bombing were solved in a former version! This indeed is a matter that should be solved by the mechanic of the game or by houserules... I knew about the problem that some players have cut raillines far behind the front but I also have thought this was solved in version 06.23. A rule of no drops farer than five hexes behind the front makes sense also.

What actually of a rule that drops are not allowed for breaking pockets? Wouldnt a high command be as much interested as possible to rescue encircled troops? Is it so much inimaginable that a mission would be created?

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 8
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/17/2014 3:02:09 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SunTsu

... I knew about the problem that some players have cut raillines far behind the front but I also have thought this was solved in version 06.23. A rule of no drops farer than five hexes behind the front makes sense also.

What actually of a rule that drops are not allowed for breaking pockets? Wouldnt a high command be as much interested as possible to rescue encircled troops? Is it so much inimaginable that a mission would be created?


Historically the Soviets used Paras in two phases of the war. They did a lot of drops in connection with the Moscow sector of the winter offensive. Most of these were incredibly botched due to a lack of transports and that the Germans knew exactly where the key airbases were (having been occupying them in early december). AGC was in a permanent panic that one of these would come off but also reasonably sure the Soviets lacked the capacity to do so. At the game level the impact was probably that of a partisan attack, indeed it was common for the paras to join up with the local partisan commands.

The next was in late 43 in an attempt to force the Dniepr at Kamev/Kaniv. This was an attempt at a corps sized operation in a more conventional manner (ie akin to the doctrine of the Western Allies). Lack of transports meant one brigade never was committed and the other 2 landed over a long period and badly scattered. They too joined up with the local partisans and were a monumental pain in the German rear but no real military threat.

After that they gave up for the WW2 period and only got interested in paras again as part of their post-55 nuclear war doctrine.

So the reality of Soviet air operations was to generate more partisan activity. But both operations had the potential to do real damage. The best balance would be to keep the capacity/threat but significantly reduce the chance to do anything but set off a partisan attack. That would keep the real threat alive but make it very unlikely much would come of it. In game, I think its something I would trade away as a Soviet player, perhaps in return for something from the German player. Pity, but as modelled in WiTE, the Soviet para capacity is too much.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/17/2014 4:01:28 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

In game, I think its something I would trade away as a Soviet player, perhaps in return for something from the German player. Pity, but as modelled in WiTE, the Soviet para capacity is too much.


Loki, if you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit? What sort of trade would you propose as a fair deal?

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 10
RE: Lvov Pocket and mild winter rules - 10/21/2014 10:44:39 AM   
SunTsu

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
A "horrible 2.0 Red Army" is one that can't kick the Axis butt back to Berlin in time. Usually because the Soviets were not able to save sufficient industry in 41/42, ran out of trucks for supply, or just did not build the right mixture for their abilities.


How do I set the "right mixture". What are some point to look at when building the new Red Army?

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 11
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