Slitherine

quote:

Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.

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ORIGINAL: Endy
Knowing that your game suddenly got a lot more difficult because you lost your whole carrier fleet not because of something you did wrong but simply because of bad rolls (weather, reaction, whatever), and that if you only moved that one squadron back in Japan to a different base you could have just as well won that carrier battle in the southern Pacific can be especially daunting sometimes...

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

If you rerun a battle turn 10 times without changing anything, lose 7, draw 2, and win 1, then you definitely did something wrong - or should not have engaged at all. If players enter battles on 50/50 odds that things can go awry and a high amount of factors beyond their control, to express surprise that 50% of them end up on the low end of line and get their ass handed on a plate is a human trait I will always fail to understand.

Nearly all spectacular CV battle loss threads on this forum, where a lot of angry tears are shed about the randomness of the results and the absence of predictability, fall into one of the above categories.

A CV battle lost in a situation where objectively every factor that can be influenced by the player points to victory, and every factor beyond his influence is minimized, is a rare event indeed.

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ORIGINAL: Endy
In some other games, when you have better odds than the opponent, the % chance of a really disastrous result is minimized. Sure, you can have a bad roll but as long as you did not enter a "fair" fight then the result can be a loss but nothing major. In Witp, it can be anything, from a total victory with no losses to a total defeat with your fleet on the bottom of the ocean and the enemy unscratched no matter the odds. And sure, you can win 70, 80, 90% of the time if you plan it right, but if that kind of amplitude of results is applied then that kind of randomness is difficult to accept by some.

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ORIGINAL: afspret

I've only played against the AI, mainly due to my work schedule, and I always save a turn before I run it. That way, if I get battered during a turn, I can always replay the turn after making some changes that will, hopefully, avoid the out come of the previous turn. I know it might seem gamey to some of ya'll, but I've only done this a few times. Besides, I've found that sometimes, no matter how many times I'd replay a turn, the outcome is usually the same (or worse), especially when it comes to naval engagements.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.

I recall the story that at the end of the first day of the Battle of the Coral Sea one or more Japanese planes mistakenly attempted to land on USN carriers!

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ORIGINAL: afspret

I've only played against the AI, mainly due to my work schedule, and I always save a turn before I run it. That way, if I get battered during a turn, I can always replay the turn after making some changes that will, hopefully, avoid the out come of the previous turn. I know it might seem gamey to some of ya'll, but I've only done this a few times. Besides, I've found that sometimes, no matter how many times I'd replay a turn, the outcome is usually the same (or worse), especially when it comes to naval engagements.

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There was a historical battle (forget which one) where the Enterprise was operating with another CV (in the same hex in game terms) but was hidden by a squall when the attack came and the other CV took all of it.

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ORIGINAL: Endy

While I agree that some of the whining comes from lack of knowledge of how the game works or lack of preparation, there are genuine situations, and quite a lot of them, where luck plays a major role. And it can be very easily checked by simply replaying the turn. I did my share of it with my opponent who was also interested in how stuff could play out with a different dice roll and in a few different scenarios - carrier strike, SAG battle etc. - the results varied from catastrophical to really good ones depending on a dice roll.

And I don't agree that you can plan for everything. Despite your best skills there are always factors you have absolutely no control over. Weather is just one example - absolutely no control over it and no way to plan or prepare for it because the forecasts are not a reliable tool to predict it. And just this one factor can lead to a MAJOR difference in results, for example a carrier battle or a surface action depending if you get nice weather or a thunderstorm in the target hex or hexes. And yes, it's just a matter of how lucky you are with the roll despite everything else you did.

I can name a few other factors but I believe you get my point. Yes, this kind of randomness in some factors is pretty realistic and true to life and most of us have learned to accept them. However, some players are used to something very different and to games, even pretty realistic ones, where the battle outcome just can't vary so much depending on just one factor. Many games, even the more complex or realistic ones, let you predict your chances very well, with only slight variation of the final result. Of course, you might argue that this is more similar to chess than real war but some players react very badly when this kind of control is taken away from them.

I'll say again, yes, WITP has got most of these random things right and yes, stuff you can't control like weather could play a major role in a sea battle and shape history and should do the same in game. The problems start when you realize that if you moved that one squadron somewhere on the West coast or in Japan, then that carrier battle could've been just as easily as it has been lost. And like I said, some other wargames have randomness confined to a much bigger degree and you can predict the results of your actions MUCH better without the wild disparity of results based on a random dice roll.

And some players react histerically to that and have a really hard time accepting it in Witp. Then again, this game is just not for everyone and you need to learn to accept it as it is.

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

No one can know exactly what will happen, and I believe the weather is fixed and won't change if you rerun.

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ORIGINAL: General Patton
All the more reason to play a PBEM.....GP

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ORIGINAL: Endy

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ORIGINAL: General Patton
All the more reason to play a PBEM.....GP

Sure, for some, you, me as well as most players on this forum this is a great thrill. But some people are just not prepared for the amount of randomness in Witp and how it affects each game.

Again, just playing devil's advocate here, not complaining personally :)

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ORIGINAL: Endy

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

No one can know exactly what will happen, and I believe the weather is fixed and won't change if you rerun.

Nope, random weather is random each time you rerun :)

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ORIGINAL: Endy

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

No one can know exactly what will happen, and I believe the weather is fixed and won't change if you rerun.

Nope, random weather is random each time you rerun :)

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There was a historical battle (forget which one) where the Enterprise was operating with another CV (in the same hex in game terms) but was hidden by a squall when the attack came and the other CV took all of it.

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ORIGINAL: General Patton
Midway, I think....GP

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

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ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Nearly all spectacular CV battle loss threads on this forum, where a lot of angry tears are shed about the randomness of the results and the absence of predictability, fall into one of the above categories.

A CV battle lost in a situation where objectively every factor that can be influenced by the player points to victory, and every factor beyond his influence is minimized, is a rare event indeed.