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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:25:47 PM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		What upsets me sometimes is people who were born to Jewish or Christian
families in Western Europe or North America make judgements of others
based on the lofty moral state that they were born into through no actions
or their own. This kind of unthinking tribalism is the root of a lot of
evil. When I see the comments of the right wing christian type bigots
in my society I get the feeling that these are the very same kind of people who embrace
the jihad in Mulsim countries. Violent intolerance is a religion all it's
own and it can hide inside any other religion. People forget that their religion
and their culture are overwhelming derived from who their parents were and where they
were born. It is not some gift of superior thinking or intellect that others
lack by nature. Some of our friends here in North Am would be perfectly content
in taking part, at least verbally, in the jihad if the sandal was on the other foot.
I know a lot of people first hand who would have gleefully joined Hitler in his
crusade against communism if they had been born in Germany instead of USA!
(They had neat uniforms, armbands and cool tanks!!!!!!)
Where you were born does not automatically make you and yours superior or inferior people.
There are many different ways to slaughter or oppress innocents to further your political aim.
Take a look at my sig. My birth here has clearly lofted Canada to a much higher plain of
morals and intellectual righteousness. How could it be otherwise?

_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 91
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:33:41 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

So explain why European Muslims born raised taught and trained in places like France and Britain and of course western Muslims like Canada join execute and do terrorism? Why if they have not been "oppressed" do they do it?


There are in fact people who are willing to fight for causes that would not otherwise directly affect them.


OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.

.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:51:27 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 92
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:48:36 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.


You said it yourself - they share a belief in the cause being fought for. You do not need to be personally oppressed to want to help others whom you believe are being oppressed themselves.

(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 93
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:49:38 PM   
Chijohnaok2


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2002
From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

What upsets me sometimes is people who were born to Jewish or Christian
families in Western Europe or North America make judgements of others
based on the lofty moral state that they were born into through no actions
or their own. This kind of unthinking tribalism is the root of a lot of
evil. When I see the comments of the right wing christian type bigots
in my society I get the feeling that these are the very same kind of people who embrace
the jihad in Mulsim countries. Violent intolerance is a religion all it's
own and it can hide inside any other religion. People forget that their religion
and their culture are overwhelming derived from who their parents were and where they
were born. It is not some gift of superior thinking or intellect that others
lack by nature. Some of our friends here in North Am would be perfectly content
in taking part, at least verbally, in the jihad if the sandal was on the other foot.
I know a lot of people first hand who would have gleefully joined Hitler in his
crusade against communism if they had been born in Germany instead of USA!
(They had neat uniforms, armbands and cool tanks!!!!!!)
Where you were born does not automatically make you and yours superior or inferior people.
There are many different ways to slaughter or oppress innocents to further your political aim.
Take a look at my sig. My birth here has clearly lofted Canada to a much higher plain of
morals and intellectual righteousness. How could it be otherwise?


I believe that people should be judged by their actions.

A person/group may advocate for their beliefs.
Do they do so peacefully or violently?

How many Christians/westerns run around beheading people, suicide bomb others, use force to impose their set of beliefs on the lives of others, and will use violence against or kill those who refuse to submit?

Now ask the same questions of those running around beheading people, suicide bombing others, use force to impose their set of beliefs on the lives of others, and will use violence against or kill those who refuse to submit to their goal to impose Islam on others?

Read the newspapers.
Listen to the news.

Use statistics to evaluate who is doing what.

Judge others by their actions.

_____________________________



Feel free to drop by and chat about whatever is on your mind.

(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 94
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:55:40 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.


You said it yourself - they share a belief in the cause being fought for. You do not need to be personally oppressed to want to help others whom you believe are being oppressed themselves.


Honestly, I think this pretty much says it all. I don't pretend to be a guru on geo-politics but as has been pointed out almost every war has had volunteers from other lands that believe in a cause. The German Army, including the Waffen SS had an enormous number of volunteers from many places in the world. If anyone doesn't believe me you can read about it here:

http://www.feldgrau.com/main1.php?ID=7

The international brigades in the Spanish Civil War were another example (and I'm not equating them with the Waffen SS, only pointing out the truth of the matter). If anyone needs me to provide a website with that information I will do so.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 10/26/2014 8:19:43 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 95
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:56:28 PM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		[/quote]

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.
[/quote]

Maybe they watched Fox News and felt threatened. Maybe they visited a forum like this
and saw oppression or intolerance. I don't know what makes other people work and I try not
to presume malice where ignorance will do. Some people, it seems, prefer hostile ignorance
to understanding. If a culture or a part of a culture encourages this then trouble will result.
How many Iraqis or Syrians have met a violent end this last decade or so? Because some unreliable
figures have been used there are some who refer the answer to this question to be irrelevent.
It is not zero and is in fact larger by an order of magnitude than the number of persons
killed by jihadists in the West. This does not justify jihad but should put it in perspective
unless you think they are inferior people whose lives are intrinsically worth less than
your own by virtue of where they live.


_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 96
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 6:58:34 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

How many Christians/westerns run around beheading people, suicide bomb others, use force to impose their set of beliefs on the lives of others, and will use violence against or kill those who refuse to submit?



warspite1

I actually think you are asking that seriously....

I'm getting the %^&* out of this increasingly bizarre thread. I apologise to Matrix for getting involved in such a politically sensitive thread.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/26/2014 7:59:42 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 97
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 7:14:54 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

How many Christians/westerns run around beheading people, suicide bomb others, use force to impose their set of beliefs on the lives of others, and will use violence against or kill those who refuse to submit?


Literally the only thing missing from your list that Christians have not done in contemporary times are the beheadings, and I'm still probably wrong on that, too.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 98
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 7:25:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Army of God (USA) anyone?

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_army_of_god.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(United_States)

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 99
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 7:31:47 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.


You said it yourself - they share a belief in the cause being fought for. You do not need to be personally oppressed to want to help others whom you believe are being oppressed themselves.

In other words the Religion, thanks for admitting it.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 100
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 7:40:04 PM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		I once read a statement where somebody said:
"Isn't funny how so many talented musicians are Mormons?"
I thought that was one of the dumbest things I had ever read.
I do not think that any more.
I am getting out of here before somebody assigns me to
one of the tribal hate groups people are so happy to join.


" And why behold thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
—Matthew 7:1-5 KJV (Matthew 7:1-5 other versions)

Apologies to Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle


_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 101
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 7:40:51 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.


You said it yourself - they share a belief in the cause being fought for. You do not need to be personally oppressed to want to help others whom you believe are being oppressed themselves.

In other words the Religion, thanks for admitting it.


No. As many of us are all trying to point out to you religion is not the common thread here. Please try to learn...please. For all our sakes...


_____________________________


(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 102
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 9:07:29 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

How many Christians/westerns run around beheading people, suicide bomb others, use force to impose their set of beliefs on the lives of others, and will use violence against or kill those who refuse to submit?



warspite1

I actually think you are asking that seriously....

I'm getting the %^&* out of this increasingly bizarre thread. I apologise to Matrix for getting involved in such a politically sensitive thread.


I am sensing a double standard here so I do not think you need to apoligize to Matrix. But it is kind of you to do so.

I am out as well.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 103
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 9:22:06 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		Well, me three then...

_____________________________


(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 104
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 9:45:55 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

OK.

So then what is their motivation?
If its not because they were "oppressed" or were subject to economic pressure, and its not (as if some have claimed) a motivation by Islam, then what it their motivation to travel to Syria or Iraq and fight on the side of a group (ISIS) whose aims are to impose their strict (sharia) beliefs on others?

When one fights for a cause, its normally because they have something in common with, or share in the beliefs of the cause that they are fighting for.


You said it yourself - they share a belief in the cause being fought for. You do not need to be personally oppressed to want to help others whom you believe are being oppressed themselves.

In other words the Religion, thanks for admitting it.


No. As many of us are all trying to point out to you religion is not the common thread here. Please try to learn...please. For all our sakes...


Ya cause after all the ONLY thing in common they have is they were all oppressed right? Ignore the fact that Islam teaches Jihad, ignore the fact that when a Muslim murders and kills in the name of Islam MILLIONS of Muslims cheer and praise him, ignore the fact that when a christian murders in the supposed name of God the Christian community around the world condemns him and pillories him. Just pretend Islam has nothing to do with it, bury that head foirmly in the sand and chant over and over nothing to see here, nothing to see here.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 105
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/26/2014 9:56:34 PM   
Chijohnaok2


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2002
From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Army of God (USA) anyone?

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_army_of_god.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(United_States)


One example you provide.

I never said that there were not examples of contemporary violent acts committed by some in the name of Christianity (or a purported Christian belief).

I did say however to look at it from a statistical viewpoint:

Weekly Jihad Report
Oct 18 - Oct 24
Jihad Attacks: 58

Allah Akbars*: 10

Dead Bodies: 417

Critically Injured: 519

*Suicide Attacks
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

There were more people killed and injured in Jihadist attacks in one week in October than in the entire history of this "Army of God" group.

Which movement is (statistically) more dangerous?

One can look at the numbers and draw a conclusion from that....or one can bury their head in the sand and simply ignore the facts/reality.


"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
― Aldous Huxley

"Living is Easy with Eyes Closed."
― John Lennon


This is my last post in this thread.

No amount of discussion will change the minds of those that refuse to acknowledge facts.



< Message edited by chijohnaok -- 10/26/2014 10:57:39 PM >

_____________________________



Feel free to drop by and chat about whatever is on your mind.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 106
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 2:06:36 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		12.7% of all Muslims, about 204 million of them, live in Indonesia. Are you really comfortable with lumping exactly all of them into the "all of these people are violent Jihadists" over the actions of less a tenth of their co-religionists? What about the ones in Uzbekistan, Bangladesh, Algeria, Morocco and China?

Because if you are, then that's hardly "judging by their actions" and is really falling into the same rhetoric that their radical extremists use to justify their own movement.

(in reply to Chijohnaok2)
Post #: 107
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 2:42:01 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

12.7% of all Muslims, about 204 million of them, live in Indonesia. Are you really comfortable with lumping exactly all of them into the "all of these people are violent Jihadists" over the actions of less a tenth of their co-religionists? What about the ones in Uzbekistan, Bangladesh, Algeria, Morocco and China?

Because if you are, then that's hardly "judging by their actions" and is really falling into the same rhetoric that their radical extremists use to justify their own movement.


Meanwhile you make excuses for the vast majority that in fact are supporters of terrorism and murder.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 108
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 2:48:00 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I'm not even arguing that those that are actively supporters of terrorism and murder should not face the full consequences of their actions, nor that their actions are justified.

All I'm pointing out is that a person is not instantly a terrorist nor a murderer simply for being a practicing Muslim.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 109
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 3:23:14 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		I had to change some of your words to accommodate the other culprits in society.

What upsets me sometimes is people who were born to Secular (Atheist, agnostics)
families in Western Europe or North America make judgments of others
based on the lofty moral state that they were born into through no actions
of their own. This kind of unthinking tribalism is the root of a lot of
evil. When I see the comments of left wing type bigots
in my society I get the feeling that these are the very same kind of people who embrace
the jihad in Muslim countries. Violent intolerance is a religion all it's
own and it can hide inside any other Secular culture. People forget that their secular ideology
and their culture are overwhelming derived from who their parents were and where they
were born. It is not some gift of superior thinking or intellect that others
lack by nature. Some of our friends here in North Am would be perfectly content
in taking part, at least verbally, in the jihad if the sandal was on the other foot.
I know a lot of people first hand who would have gleefully joined Stalin in his
crusade against freedom if they had been born in Russia instead of USA!
(They had neat uniforms, armbands and cool tanks!!!!!!)
Where you were born does not automatically make you and yours superior or inferior people.
There are many different ways to slaughter or oppress innocents to further your political aim. And the communist, Marxists used them.



_____________________________


(in reply to danlongman)
Post #: 110
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 4:21:17 PM   
Chijohnaok2


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2002
From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
Status: offline 		BUMP
( I am not posting comments in this thread--simply bumping it)

_____________________________



Feel free to drop by and chat about whatever is on your mind.

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 111
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 4:21:28 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Edit: Late as usual.

< Message edited by Orm -- 10/27/2014 5:22:26 PM >

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 112
RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa - 10/27/2014 7:38:45 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah. Locking this up. Sorry guys.

Cheers

Pip

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 113
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