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IADS - 10/23/2014 10:13:15 AM

Dutchie999

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Hi guys,

I have a question. I don't know what happend but for some reason I can't get IADS to work anymore. All I am trying to do is combing a radar with a SAM Bn. So that if the radar finds a hostile within missile range of the SAM Bn the SAM Bn fires up its FCR radar and starts launching missiles. After the hostile is either dead or retreated to outside missile range then the SAM Bn turns off its FCR radar once again.

I looked for example at the Growler vs Growler scenerio in C:MANO to see how it is done there. But although there is a mission there with 'Radar Activates' it doesn't really work.

Thanks

Post #: 1

RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 10:49:25 AM

Tomcat84

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Look at this attachment.

Side wide doctrine is EMCON passive. Tin shield radar is ignoring EMCON with radar active. SA-3 obeys EMCON.

Once the target is detected and comes in firing range, SA-3 fires up its low blow and shoots.

Is that what you are looking for?

You can further complicate things by actually putting the SAM on an AAW patrol area (with EMCON obey passive, and hold position enabled), with prosecution area, to limit its firing range and create higher PK shots.

Let me know if you have more questions!

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2

RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 11:54:12 AM

Dutchie999

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Joined: 10/8/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

Look at this attachment.

Side wide doctrine is EMCON passive. Tin shield radar is ignoring EMCON with radar active. SA-3 obeys EMCON.

Once the target is detected and comes in firing range, SA-3 fires up its low blow and shoots.

Is that what you are looking for?

You can further complicate things by actually putting the SAM on an AAW patrol area (with EMCON obey passive, and hold position enabled), with prosecution area, to limit its firing range and create higher PK shots.

Let me know if you have more questions!

Tomcat84 thanks for the reply. I tried with an SA-3 and Tin shield radar like you said and I agree that does work. But try to add a S-400 and the new Nebo M radar and nothing happends. The S-400 FCR (Cheese Board) doesn't light up to get accurate target information and send its missiles downrange. What I think that happends is that the SA-3 uses only the Tin shield both as its search radar and FCR. If you monitor the SA-3 Bn during engagement then you can see that its own radars never turn on. Since the Nebo M radar is a VHF radar and therefore very inaccurate it can't be used as a acquisition radar. So maybe this is a bug? Since if I understand IADS correctly the idea is that very long range search radar are used to detect targets and then SAM Bn use only their FCR to take quick shots at enemy aircraft and turn off their FCR as soon as possible.

Edit: The SA-3 FCR does turn on during engagement. And the SA-21 FCR also turns on during engagement with a Tin Shield radar. So the bug is in the Nebo M radar.

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/23/2014 1:03:10 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 12:06:58 PM

Tomcat84

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Yeah that is being fixed. Fix is not out yet. Quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Thanks for submitting this.

The root cause is a tweak we made a few builds back to the radar model. Low-frequency radars (in this case the Tall King) cannot generate precise target tracks. (This BTW is part of the reason why Stealth research initially focused on high frequency, as that is the territory of most fire-control radars).

The fix here is to do an additional pre-fire check with available sensors able to generate a precise fix (in this case the Square Pair radar). If the target can be detected precisely, and all other firing conditions are met, the weapon is launched.

Fixed in Build 579.

That has to do with a Tall king not getting an SA-5 to shoot. See this thread

So I think that should resolve the issue once that update comes out. Wait and see :)

p.s. Cheese Board is not the S-400 FCR, Grave Stone is. Cheese Board is the search radar. Would be nice if we could place a Cheese Board on its own (without the SAM)

< Message edited by Tomcat84 -- 10/23/2014 1:08:13 PM >

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RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 12:16:36 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

Yeah that is being fixed. Fix is not out yet. Quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Thanks for submitting this.

The root cause is a tweak we made a few builds back to the radar model. Low-frequency radars (in this case the Tall King) cannot generate precise target tracks. (This BTW is part of the reason why Stealth research initially focused on high frequency, as that is the territory of most fire-control radars).

The fix here is to do an additional pre-fire check with available sensors able to generate a precise fix (in this case the Square Pair radar). If the target can be detected precisely, and all other firing conditions are met, the weapon is launched.

Fixed in Build 579.

That has to do with a Tall king not getting an SA-5 to shoot. See this thread

So I think that should resolve the issue once that update comes out. Wait and see :)

p.s. Cheese Board is not the S-400 FCR, Grave Stone is. Cheese Board is the search radar. Would be nice if we could place a Cheese Board on its own (without the SAM)

Thanks Tomcat84. I already searched the forum before this making this post but apparently not thoroughly enough. Sorry

By the way do you also know if they are working on a shoot and scoot feature for SAM (and maybe radar)? Since now we can only use static SAM installations for the AI. And well... a SAM Bn that stays in the same location after a engagement is just doomed.

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Post #: 5

RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 12:39:01 PM

Tomcat84

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Good question so I just went and tried it a bit. There is a way, but it is not super easy and it has some limitations right now. It needs new functionality that is only available in closed beta (event editor action to change a unit from one mission to another) so I cant show you a scenario file just yet.

But, the way I did it:
Have a SAM sitting, unassigned, emcon passive. Have an EW radar active. Make a support mission, one way, to a single RP where you want the SAM to move to.
Make 4 RPs around SAM current location and 4 RPs around post-moving location.
Make a trigger that if a weapon of the SAMs type enters the 4 RPs around current location, it gets assigned to the move mission.
Make a trigger that if the SAM enters the new 4 RPs, it unassigns again from mission, it'll engage targets again if it acquires any.

Limitations:
- by having the SAM unassigned when it is ready for targets, it will fire max range low PK shots. If you assign it to patrol missions, it will keep milling around at 30 knots because it thinks it has to move while on patrol. So it wont shoot. And you cant use the hold position toggle in this case cause then it never moves in the first place
- by having the SAM change to its moving mission as soon as a weapon is launched, this also means that if the weapon misses, there is no second shot. And the SAM doesnt move because it stays in engaged offensive mindset. This can be overcome by creating an extra event step around the world. You put a marker somewhere, and make 4 RPs near it. When the weapon is fired, instead of triggering the mission change, you trigger a teleport of the marker into the 4 RPs. You create an extra trigger of unit remains in area for X minutes for the marker, and make that the trigger for the change SAM to moving mission. This way you can set a 5 minute delay for example. It would be easier if we could just use timing in the event editor in a simpler way as a condition or trigger.

I will post some requests in closed beta forum to ask for the ability to either toggle the hold position modifier through event actions or have patol speed of "stop" for use with SAMs. Also I will post about timing.

Thanks for the ideas!

edit: Also if you want the location where the SAM moves to to be random you could give it a multi point RP support mission where it can just branch out in a random direction each time, and instead of reallocating it to patrol mission by an enter area trigger, you can make a timed trigger with another marker. So itll spend 30 minutes moving in a big old 4 RP support mission square, and then switch back to unassigned. Make sense?

< Message edited by Tomcat84 -- 10/23/2014 1:40:13 PM >

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RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 12:56:18 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

Good question so I just went and tried it a bit. There is a way, but it is not super easy and it has some limitations right now. It needs new functionality that is only available in closed beta (event editor action to change a unit from one mission to another) so I cant show you a scenario file just yet.

But, the way I did it:
Have a SAM sitting, unassigned, emcon passive. Have an EW radar active. Make a support mission, one way, to a single RP where you want the SAM to move to.
Make 4 RPs around SAM current location and 4 RPs around post-moving location.
Make a trigger that if a weapon of the SAMs type enters the 4 RPs around current location, it gets assigned to the move mission.
Make a trigger that if the SAM enters the new 4 RPs, it unassigns again from mission, it'll engage targets again if it acquires any.

Limitations:
- by having the SAM unassigned when it is ready for targets, it will fire max range low PK shots. If you assign it to patrol missions, it will keep milling around at 30 knots because it thinks it has to move while on patrol. So it wont shoot. And you cant use the hold position toggle in this case cause then it never moves in the first place
- by having the SAM change to its moving mission as soon as a weapon is launched, this also means that if the weapon misses, there is no second shot. And the SAM doesnt move because it stays in engaged offensive mindset. This can be overcome by creating an extra event step around the world. You put a marker somewhere, and make 4 RPs near it. When the weapon is fired, instead of triggering the mission change, you trigger a teleport of the marker into the 4 RPs. You create an extra trigger of unit remains in area for X minutes for the marker, and make that the trigger for the change SAM to moving mission. This way you can set a 5 minute delay for example. It would be easier if we could just use timing in the event editor in a simpler way as a condition or trigger.

I will post some requests in closed beta forum to ask for the ability to either toggle the hold position modifier through event actions or have patol speed of "stop" for use with SAMs. Also I will post about timing.

Thanks for the ideas!

edit: Also if you want the location where the SAM moves to to be random you could give it a multi point RP support mission where it can just branch out in a random direction each time, and instead of reallocating it to patrol mission by an enter area trigger, you can make a timed trigger with another marker. So itll spend 30 minutes moving in a big old 4 RP support mission square, and then switch back to unassigned. Make sense?

I have been just trying something similar although not as thorough as your idea. The way I would like it to be (but don't know how hard to implement that is) is just a addition to the existing missions. Lets call this for the moment a 'Shoot and Scoot SAM & RADAR' mission. So first you add reference points to create a area in which the SAM and radar have free movement. Then in the misssion editor you add your mobile SAM and radar assets and then you have two boxes in which you can put the minimal amount of time and the maximal amount of time that a SAM or radar stays in the same place before it moves to a new random place in the RP area and its radars turn on again (if the EMCON was controlled manual and put in active before moving to another place ofcourse). The only thing you would need to add to make this thing work is a new database entry for mobile radar and SAM installations how long they take to turn off their systems, stow their stuff and get on their way. But this doesn't have to be very accurate and can mostly be guessed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

p.s. Cheese Board is not the S-400 FCR, Grave Stone is. Cheese Board is the search radar. Would be nice if we could place a Cheese Board on its own (without the SAM)

Whoops. Sorry

. They way I try get a stand-alone Cheese Board radar is I just remove all the other assets from a SA-21 Bn except the Cheese Board radar. The only problem is that if you use C and copy the radar everything is added automatically again

. That idea that you can't change units and then copy them properly is really irritating me

. Hopefully they will fix that in the next update!

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/23/2014 2:06:12 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: IADS - 10/23/2014 11:09:30 PM

mikmykWS

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Doesn't look like we've got one independently in the db. Will put a request in.

In the meantime just pick an existing radar. Delete the sensor and then add the Cheese board sensor.Done!

Mike

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RE: IADS - 10/24/2014 11:11:43 AM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Doesn't look like we've got one independently in the db. Will put a request in.

In the meantime just pick an existing radar. Delete the sensor and then add the Cheese board sensor.Done!

Mike

Mike what did you think about my proposal for a Shoot and Scoot SAM and radar mission as described in my post above this one?

PS: I hesitate to ask, but are you guys maybe working on fixing the copy feature in Command?

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/24/2014 12:13:34 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: IADS - 10/24/2014 12:55:55 PM

mikmykWS

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Yes although you can still copy using the delta files feature as well.

Your idea is great. We're working on something rather big now that will give scenario writers many more tools to do the things they would like. This ismuch better than having to wait for us to code to every case.

Mike

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Post #: 10

RE: IADS - 10/24/2014 3:07:27 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yes although you can still copy using the delta files feature as well.

Your idea is great. We're working on something rather big now that will give scenario writers many more tools to do the things they would like. This ismuch better than having to wait for us to code to every case.

Mike

Count me excited! Is this coming out with 1.06? And thanks by the way for fixing the copy function. Much appreciated! It is really generous all the time you guys put into this game/simulator. The only thing we as users do is come up with new functions to add to the game

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Post #: 11

RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 9:21:35 AM

Tomcat84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999
But try to add a S-400 and the new Nebo M radar and nothing happends. The S-400 FCR (Cheese Board) doesn't light up to get accurate target information and send its missiles downrange.

Just ran this test in closed beta build 580, it now works as you want it to I think. The Nebo starts generating the inaccurate contact that cant be fired on. Once it the rough contact enters the SA-21 weapon range ring, it lights up the gravestone, gets a good fix and lets missiles fly. The cheeseboard actually stays offline the whole time since it is not needed in this case.

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 1:19:41 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999
But try to add a S-400 and the new Nebo M radar and nothing happends. The S-400 FCR (Cheese Board) doesn't light up to get accurate target information and send its missiles downrange.

Just ran this test in closed beta build 580, it now works as you want it to I think. The Nebo starts generating the inaccurate contact that cant be fired on. Once it the rough contact enters the SA-21 weapon range ring, it lights up the gravestone, gets a good fix and lets missiles fly. The cheeseboard actually stays offline the whole time since it is not needed in this case.

That is great news! But I am wondering about something else. Since I have no access to advanced beta builds would you be willing to try this for me and see if an engagement happends when you fire HARMS towards the Cheese Board radar?

Attachment (1)

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 1:43:36 PM

Tomcat84

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sure!

busy right now but I'll take a look tonight and report back.

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 3:04:28 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

sure!

busy right now but I'll take a look tonight and report back.

Thank you!

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 4:17:41 PM

Tomcat84

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Just ran it. They dont engage and I think the reason is that the Gravestone doesn't have a TEL and the TEL doesn't have a gravestone.

If I delete those two, leave the cheeseboard, and add a new SA-21 from which I only delete the cheeseboard, then yes if you fire HARMs at the radiating cheeseboard, eventually the dislocated Gravestone comes online and targets the HARMs.

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 6:51:30 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

Just ran it. They dont engage and I think the reason is that the Gravestone doesn't have a TEL and the TEL doesn't have a gravestone.

If I delete those two, leave the cheeseboard, and add a new SA-21 from which I only delete the cheeseboard, then yes if you fire HARMs at the radiating cheeseboard, eventually the dislocated Gravestone comes online and targets the HARMs.

Thanks for testing it Tomcat84. I was trying to see if in an advanced beta build of C:MANO I could separate a search radar, engagement radar and TEL and the SAM system would still work. The reason for doing this is to circumvent the fact that otherwise you can totally destroy a 2 radar and 12 TEL SAM system with just 4 JDAM's in C:MANO. The problem is that that is not very realistic. Modern SAM system-assets are not clustered together like older systems but can for example in the S-400's case be located a maximal distance 100 kilometers from the command vehicle (everything is linked wirelessly, see AUSAIRPOWER). So to totally destroy a 12 TEL SAM system you need at least 14 guided munitions.

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/26/2014 7:54:16 PM >

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 7:34:04 PM

mikmykWS

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We'll take a look. We have dispersal values in the db for the mounts to prevent that although if the bombs are big enough and they hit a specific mount it is possible for them to take out other mounts. It is not considered one target.

Could you tell me what SAM you experienced this behavior or if handy, post a save file.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 9:11:49 PM

Tomcat84

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Here's a save of two SA-21 sites being engaged by 2 B-2s. One B-2 is dropping GBU-31 2000 lb bombs, the other GBU-38 500 lb bombs.

the first GBU-31 takes out the whole site every time on my side. The 38s I've seen three times just 1 takes out the whole site, one time it took 3 bombs. Either way it's probably still a rather low number to destroy the whole site with 8 TELs, a Cheeseboard and a Gravestone.

Also I am seeing a couple of

New contact! Designated VAMPIRE #1 - Detected by SAM Bn (SA-21a Growler [S-400 Triumph]) [Sensors: Mk1 Eyeball] at 178deg - 3.8NM - Medium Contrail Detected.

I was not aware JDAMs left contrails?

Attachment (1)

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 9:23:08 PM

mikmykWS

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Thanks Tomcat.

Both issues logged.

Mike

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 9:54:08 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

We'll take a look. We have dispersal values in the db for the mounts to prevent that although if the bombs are big enough and they hit a specific mount it is possible for them to take out other mounts. It is not considered one target.

Could you tell me what SAM you experienced this behavior or if handy, post a save file.

Thanks!

Mike

I figured you guys has some kind of value for dispersion in the database. Very nice! I think it is reasonable to assume that a country that posses the latest generation SAM systems also adopts the latest generation of SAM system strategy. So IMHO that would mean that there will be a significant distance between search radars, engagement radars and TEL's. Anywhere from 1 kilometer to tens of kilometers.

Edit: Thanks to Tomcat for providing the example-file

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/26/2014 10:55:08 PM >

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RE: IADS - 10/26/2014 11:43:22 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

I figured you guys has some kind of value for dispersion in the database. Very nice! I think it is reasonable to assume that a country that posses the latest generation SAM systems also adopts the latest generation of SAM system strategy. So IMHO that would mean that there will be a significant distance between search radars, engagement radars and TEL's. Anywhere from 1 kilometer to tens of kilometers.

Edit: Thanks to Tomcat for providing the example-file

My guess is it might just be something with either the dispersal value or warhead

Not some huge misunderstanding of capabilities.

Thanks!

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 10/27/2014 12:47:22 AM >

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RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 12:37:51 AM

Rudd

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The Big Birds are the radars that are occasionally not on site, they can appear 1-2nm away.

IIRC, Tin Shields can be linked to the "chain" also, and they can be solo or nearby.

Of all the S-300 and S-400 sites that I have looked at, the Grave Stone, Cheese Board, Grill Pan, High Screen, Bill Board, Flap Lid, Clam Shell, and Tomb Stone, appear to be always identified close by, check out the SSO

Here is a Russian S-400 site at 55.544700�, 38.373719�

Attachment (1)

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RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 9:59:07 AM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

The Big Birds are the radars that are occasionally not on site, they can appear 1-2nm away.

IIRC, Tin Shields can be linked to the "chain" also, and they can be solo or nearby.

Of all the S-300 and S-400 sites that I have looked at, the Grave Stone, Cheese Board, Grill Pan, High Screen, Bill Board, Flap Lid, Clam Shell, and Tomb Stone, appear to be always identified close by, check out the SSO

Here is a Russian S-400 site at 55.544700�, 38.373719�

Hi Rudd,

I am wondering how you know that that is a S-400 site?

Thanks for posting!

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/27/2014 10:59:31 AM >

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RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 10:50:30 AM

Rudd

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http://geimint.blogspot.com/?m=1
I guess I don't know, but Sean O'Connor says it is.

Download the SAM Site Overview KMZ from above link

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RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 11:43:37 AM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

http://geimint.blogspot.com/?m=1
I guess I don't know, but Sean O'Connor says it is.

Download the SAM Site Overview KMZ from above link

Rudd can you please upload the .kmz file here? Because I am getting an error when trying to download it from the blog.

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Post #: 26

RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 11:58:55 AM

Rudd

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I'll try this evening

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RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 1:12:44 PM

Rudd

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Try the link at the top of this page http://geimint.blogspot.com/search/label/Google%20Earth%20Placemark?m=0

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Post #: 28

RE: IADS - 10/27/2014 2:39:53 PM

Dutchie999

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

Try the link at the top of this page http://geimint.blogspot.com/search/label/Google%20Earth%20Placemark?m=0

Thanks Rudd!

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Post #: 29

RE: IADS - 11/4/2014 2:24:12 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84
Also I am seeing a couple of

New contact! Designated VAMPIRE #1 - Detected by SAM Bn (SA-21a Growler [S-400 Triumph]) [Sensors: Mk1 Eyeball] at 178deg - 3.8NM - Medium Contrail Detected.

I was not aware JDAMs left contrails?