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Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 6:29:38 AM

JeffroK

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/raaf-veteran-wins-fight-to-clear-crews-name/5844958

It appears that SE Morison made some comments about RAAF searches before Savo Island, not reporting the IJN approach by radio and having a cuppa before making their report.

Seems the crew did their job despite being attacked by japanese fighters and the problem was somewhere else up the chain.

Good to know at least 1 of the crew lived to see their names cleared.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 7:23:54 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/raaf-veteran-wins-fight-to-clear-crews-name/5844958

It appears that SE Morison made some comments about RAAF searches before Savo Island, not reporting the IJN approach by radio and having a cuppa before making their report.

Seems the crew did their job despite being attacked by japanese fighters and the problem was somewhere else up the chain.

Good to know at least 1 of the crew lived to see their names cleared.

warspite1

Great post JeffK. One thing not clear to me about that article. So the crew did their job and reported the find to base at Milne Bay. So was Morrison right that Milne Bay only sent on the contents of the report a couple of hours later to the US forces?

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 7:39:05 AM

JeffroK

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Dont know, I'll look further but as Milne Bay was part of SWPAC and the Guadalcanal op part of SOPAC maybe the chain of command was cumbersome.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 7:46:42 AM

warspite1

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Just shows how easily it is for stories to become "fact". The otherwise excellent Guadalcanal by Frank repeats Morrison's claim.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 10:14:57 AM

JeffroK

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I cant see a direct reason for the delay, but Milne Bay had only been operating for 2-3 weeks and radio traffic first went to Pt Moresby then Townsville. Far from todays satellite traffic it would be coded, decoded etc. I still believe their face to face report got through to Crutchley around 1800hrs that day.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 11:11:16 AM

btd64

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This is why you have to gather the facts before you make any claims or write reports....GP

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 2:11:00 PM

Chickenboy

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Guys, please remember that Morrison's tome was written between 1946-1953. 60+ years of additional poring over the official records *should* be expected to unearth some additional details about the events that occurred. This to me is one of those details that-right or wrong-cannot be expected to be uncovered in a monumental official history so shortly after the fact. I'm willing to forgive these anticipated slights and still recognize Morrison's superior work as it lies.

I'm pleased that the RAAF crew has been vindicated, if that's the right word.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 3:04:45 PM

tiemanjw

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For what it is worth, Neptune's Inferno has a different take on events. The second section (if it can be called that) of chapter 6 says that:
"William Stutt, reported to his base at Milne Bay that ships... include two seaplane tenders, or gunboats." It goes on to say that the report was transmitted to "his base" (I assume Milne Bay), sat for several hours there, then for more hours at Brisbane and "finally reached Turner and Crutchley between 6 and 7 pm" (I assume local time). However it says that because the report said "sea plane tenders" it didn't raise suspicions.
It also says that Stutt and his crew did not know of operation Watchtower.

EDIT:
To be fair to Stutt and his crew, I'm not saying he is guilty of anything - I'm just parroting what I've read. I don't know much about the actual process of encoding and transmitting a report in a Hudson at this time, but (and correct me if I'm wrong), the process includes writing / composing a message - perhaps with shorthand used for ship types, encoding the message, transmitting the message - by punching out a bunch of dots and dashes on a small lever (while the A/C is possibly vibrating from turbulence or banking to hide from fighters), freespace transmission of the message, receive the message and write down what it says while listening to the beeps and dashes, and than decoding the message. This would than need to be done at least 2 more times (Milne Bay to Brisbane, Brisbane to Turner). A mistake in any of these steps could cause the analog equivalent of a "bit flip", potentially changing the meaning.
Further, the book also says that Mikawa conducted float plane operations (the book seems to indicate this happened after the Hudson reported, but I wasn't there). Stutt could have just said he saw warships (gunboats) operating float planes - which were later interpreted as tenders.

< Message edited by tiemanj -- 10/28/2014 4:27:00 PM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/28/2014 10:02:58 PM

rustysi

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Glad this came out with at least one of the crew stiil around. I'm pretty sure I've read Frank's book but I don't recall a passage about a Hudson siting vessels. Especially with text such as Morison wrote,

quote:

"The pilot of this plane, instead of breaking silence to report, as he had orders to do in an urgent case, or returning to base which he could have done in two hours, spent most of the afternoon completing his search mission, came down at Milne Bay, had his tea, and then reported the contact."

Harsh words, especially "had his tea", really? I mean the term that comes to my mind is dereliction of duty, which is obviously not the case here. So I probably just chalked that perticular passage off. Its like in Costello's book Pacific War where someone here said that he wrote that they raised the Lexington. I read the book and I don't recall reading that. I'm sure, when I read that passage I just thought "yeah right" and tossed that bit into the 'bit bucket' so as not to fill the 'buffer' (my brain) with useless info.

Anyway at this point in the war we were still flubbing many things. It was difficult at best to put international naval units together and have them operate efficiently. You know different procedures, signals and such. Then do it at night. The US Navy was poor at night ops in this time period (can't speak for the RAN). Of course us gamers do it on a regular basis.

Not to mention that most of the war news was still bad at this time and I'm sure there was all kinds of finger pointing. Which usually results in many false accusations and nothing getting corrected. Anyway I'm happy the record has been set straight.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/29/2014 5:23:24 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Glad this came out with at least one of the crew stiil around. I'm pretty sure I've read Frank's book but I don't recall a passage about a Hudson siting vessels. Especially with text such as Morison wrote

warspite1

Page 92. Frank does not mention the tea. He does state that the Hudsons had orders to report contact immediately and stay with the contact until relieved. They did neither. The first Hudson (doesn't say which is which) lingered in the area for sixteen minutes and then completed the rest of the mission. Both Hudson's only reported what they saw when they returned to Milne Bay - the latter aircraft gave neither course nor speed of the ships.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/29/2014 7:14:57 AM

JeffroK

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It all provides an IRL balance to those who complain about their aircraft flying against targets which "must be sighted"

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/29/2014 8:57:51 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

It all provides an IRL balance to those who complain about their aircraft flying against targets which "must be sighted"

Yeah, we all expect the perfect linear. Find 'em... attack exactly what we want... sink everything.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/30/2014 12:31:06 AM

pontiouspilot

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Sounds like their descendants or ghosts are flying my search missions!!

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/30/2014 9:30:44 AM

Reg

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Loxton's "The Shame of Savo" (ISBN 1863736506) mentioned in the article has been around since 1994 and dedicates an entire chapter to the sighting of the task force.

I'm glad to see that someone is finally taking notice.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/30/2014 8:53:02 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Loxton's "The Shame of Savo" (ISBN 1863736506) mentioned in the article has been around since 1994 and dedicates an entire chapter to the sighting of the task force.

I'm glad to see that someone is finally taking notice.

warspite1

Ordered this - hope its as interesting as it promises to be.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 6:54:06 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Loxton's "The Shame of Savo" (ISBN 1863736506) mentioned in the article has been around since 1994 and dedicates an entire chapter to the sighting of the task force.

I'm glad to see that someone is finally taking notice.

warspite1

Ordered this - hope its as interesting as it promises to be.

I have had this book for many years and I think you will find this a very absorbing read.

Bruce Loxton was a midshipman on the bridge of the Canberra on that fateful night and he has teamed up with one of Australia's premier historians to produce this book in an attempt bring some long suppressed facts to light.

I won't steal the books thunder but have a close look at that famous picture on the cover and ponder the direction the guns are facing....

Highly recommended.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 10:06:14 AM

LargeSlowTarget

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Rear guns are trained abaft to port, while the enemy was sighted ahead on the starboard bow - now that makes me curious, gotta get me a copy of that book...

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 10/31/2014 11:07:34 AM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 4:04:44 PM

Symon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Rear guns are trained abaft to port, while the enemy was sighted ahead on the starboard bow - now that makes me curious, gotta get me a copy of that book...

Yeah, but the pic shows her after she was whacked and listing to starboard. Training the guns to port might help counteract the list. Wouldn't help much, but every little degree would be critical. JWE

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 8:26:14 PM

Reg

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Spoiler: The ship was crippled at this point and unable to train her guns....

< Message edited by Reg -- 10/31/2014 10:11:52 PM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 9:32:15 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Loxton's "The Shame of Savo" (ISBN 1863736506) mentioned in the article has been around since 1994 and dedicates an entire chapter to the sighting of the task force.

I'm glad to see that someone is finally taking notice.

warspite1

Ordered this - hope its as interesting as it promises to be.

I have had this book for many years and I think you will find this a very absorbing read.

Bruce Loxton was a midshipman on the bridge of the Canberra on that fateful night and he has teamed up with one of Australia's premier historians to produce this book in an attempt bring some long suppressed facts to light.

I won't steal the books thunder but have a close look at that famous picture on the cover and ponder the direction the guns are facing....

Highly recommended.

warspite1

I'll let you know what I think as soon as I have read it. No date from Amazon yet but I'm hopeful it won't be long.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 10/31/2014 9:34:08 PM

LargeSlowTarget

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That's what I wanted to reply - second Japanese salvo whacked both engine rooms and she lost all power and communications completely. Never had a chance to train her guns on a target and went down without having fired a shot.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 10/31/2014 10:36:08 PM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/1/2014 1:12:54 AM

JeffroK

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Canberra was struck by two torpedoes on her starboard side and over 20 salvoes of 8-inch shellfire. With power lost and the ship listing, the wounded and survivors were transferred to USS Patterson and USS Blue.

Rear Admiral R.K. Turner USN ordered that Canberra be abandoned and sunk if she could not steam by 6:30 am. Once all the survivors had been evacuated, and acting in accordance with the orders of Rear Admiral Turner and Rear Admiral V.A.C. Crutchley VC DSC RN, who was officer in tactical command of the combined force of Australian and American cruisers and destroyers at Guadalcanal, USS Selfridge fired 263 5-inch shells and four torpedoes into Canberra, although she refused to sink. Eventually a torpedo fired by USS Ellet administered the final blow. Canberra sank at about 8:00 am on 9 August 1942.
http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-canberra-i

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/1/2014 1:16:43 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Canberra was struck by two torpedoes on her starboard side and over 20 salvoes of 8-inch shellfire. With power lost and the ship listing, the wounded and survivors were transferred to USS Patterson and USS Blue.

Rear Admiral R.K. Turner USN ordered that Canberra be abandoned and sunk if she could not steam by 6:30 am. Once all the survivors had been evacuated, and acting in accordance with the orders of Rear Admiral Turner and Rear Admiral V.A.C. Crutchley VC DSC RN, who was officer in tactical command of the combined force of Australian and American cruisers and destroyers at Guadalcanal, USS Selfridge fired 263 5-inch shells and four torpedoes into Canberra, although she refused to sink. Eventually a torpedo fired by USS Ellet administered the final blow. Canberra sank at about 8:00 am on 9 August 1942.
http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-canberra-i

warspite1

Sad seeing the picture of this fine County-class ship in post 17

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/1/2014 6:12:54 AM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

That's what I wanted to reply - second Japanese salvo whacked both engine rooms and she lost all power and communications completely. Never had a chance to train her guns on a target and went down without having fired a shot.

I noticed in the Australian official naval history that Canberra initially prepared to engage the enemy to starboard with the relevent directors being set to bear on one of the enemy ships and the guns ordered to follow the directors.

Just after this, torpedoes were sighted approaching and the Canberra was ordered hard to starboard, which meant the enemy were now going to be placed to port. Orders were then given for a change to a port action but by then it seems Canberra had run out of time. It's unclear in that history what the turrets were doing in response to either action order.

It also was interesting to see mention in the official history that the Canberra's surface radar was reportedly able to pick up the USS Blue from time to time as the destroyer patrolled the southern entrance into Savo Sound 15 miles away.

If only.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/1/2014 10:52:44 PM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

That's what I wanted to reply - second Japanese salvo whacked both engine rooms and she lost all power and communications completely. Never had a chance to train her guns on a target and went down without having fired a shot.

I noticed in the Australian official naval history that Canberra initially prepared to engage the enemy to starboard with the relevent directors being set to bear on one of the enemy ships and the guns ordered to follow the directors.

Just after this, torpedoes were sighted approaching and the Canberra was ordered hard to starboard, which meant the enemy were now going to be placed to port. Orders were then given for a change to a port action but by then it seems Canberra had run out of time. It's unclear in that history what the turrets were doing in response to either action order.

Addressed by Loxton on pages 182/183. The turrets were swinging and the gunnery officer was moving to the opposite side of the bridge to engage the Japanese on the port side. (which way is the ship listing above?)

This should have been executed in a matter of seconds by an alert and experienced crew. The critical factor was how suddenly all power was lost.

quote:

It also was interesting to see mention in the official history that the Canberra's surface radar was reportedly able to pick up the USS Blue from time to time as the destroyer patrolled the southern entrance into Savo Sound 15 miles away.

If only.

Also addressed by Loxton in Chapter 16 based on Japanese records which were very different to the US Naval War College Analysis.....

< Message edited by Reg -- 11/1/2014 11:53:33 PM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/7/2014 1:59:21 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Loxton's "The Shame of Savo" (ISBN 1863736506) mentioned in the article has been around since 1994 and dedicates an entire chapter to the sighting of the task force.

I'm glad to see that someone is finally taking notice.

warspite1

Ordered this - hope its as interesting as it promises to be.

I have had this book for many years and I think you will find this a very absorbing read.

Bruce Loxton was a midshipman on the bridge of the Canberra on that fateful night and he has teamed up with one of Australia's premier historians to produce this book in an attempt bring some long suppressed facts to light.

I won't steal the books thunder but have a close look at that famous picture on the cover and ponder the direction the guns are facing....

Highly recommended.

warspite1

I'll let you know what I think as soon as I have read it. No date from Amazon yet but I'm hopeful it won't be long.

warspite1

Second hand copy arrived yesterday - turns out to be an old library book from a library in Somerset!

Anyway, read the intro and first chapter last night. I can tell already that this is going to be one of this unputdownable books. The author has a clear writing style and the subject matter is so interesting - the perfect combination for a great book.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/8/2014 6:04:06 AM

warspite1

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Well, early into the book and Frank Fletcher is getting his bottom handed to him by the author, citing Wake Island, performance at Coral Sea and of course, getting his carrier torpedoed from under him shortly after.

This may be some scene setting to support the poor decision making re withdrawing the carriers a few days after the Guadalcanal landings, but Fletcher really comes across badly.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Did Fletcher do a good job until relieved of command by King or was his performance sub-par?

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/8/2014 6:21:09 AM

JeffroK

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Maybe, like many other commanders they found themselves out of their depth when Total War hit them.

From our comfortable chairs, with complete knowledge of what really happened, we criticize without the ability for reply.

How do we know what he knew, how he felt, what his opponents were planning.

Many Historians put themselves into the pulpit and can KNOW what took place, few would have had the ability to swap with those they seek to humble.

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/8/2014 6:35:40 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

From our comfortable chairs, with complete knowledge of what really happened, we criticize without the ability for reply.

How do we know what he knew, how he felt, what his opponents were planning.

Many Historians put themselves into the pulpit and can KNOW what took place, few would have had the ability to swap with those they seek to humble.

warspite1

All of which is a given. I was simply asking for people (who are well read on this theatre) to share their thoughts and opinions on whether Fletcher did a good job or not.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/8/2014 7:37:05 AM >

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RE: Correcting a mistake in S E Morison's Histories - 11/8/2014 6:43:41 AM

JeffroK

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And I was commenting on the comments made in the book.

If I wanted to make abusive comment about your skills I'd just cut & paste from your World in Flames AARs.

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