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IRST engagement - 11/5/2014 10:31:55 AM   
Dutchie999


Posts: 117
Joined: 10/8/2014
Status: offline
Guys,

I am trying to find some info on the ability to fire AMRAAM/R-77-like missiles without radar lock by just using IRST. But I can't find any info on it. I would think that if you have an IRST lock and you would therefore know the position and distance of the enemy aircraft you can fire without turning on your radar.

Does anyone have some info on this?

Thanks

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 11/5/2014 1:39:05 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: IRST engagement - 11/5/2014 12:17:15 PM   
Triode

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 9/26/2014
Status: offline 		well in case of R-77, short answer is yes, you can fire without turn on your radar.

one of ability IRST station Su-35:
"feeding data of Optoelectronic sighting and navigation system of angular coordinates and range values of aerial target ​​for the formation of targeting data for missiles homing head"
from manufacturer website:
http://www.uomz.ru/products/spetstehnika/optikoelektronnyie_sistemyi_dlya_samoletov/optikolokatsionnaya_stantsiya_ols in russian


for R-77 :
"10 s before the entrance to the permitted area or launch by the command "Start" rocket goes into pre-launch mode and receives from the carrier information about the target. At the command "Start" is activated autonomous power supply, stored information about the parameters of the carrier and target, unlock rudders. The rudders obtain prior variance for the safe separation of the missile from the carrier. When starting with underwing holders engines inclusion occurs immediately. When starting with the ejection holders pushers separating missile from the aircraft, after which a delay is turned on the engine. At a distance from the carrier at 150-300 m fuze mechanism is charged. The transition is made to active guidance by the comand of signal-board computer, which determines the distance to target and ability of ARH to lock target. In case of fire on the minimum range, command and inertial guidance is not used, and immediately switched to active homing. . After switching on the ARH datalink line of correction and missile flight data from the carrier continues to build a mathematical model of the target. In case of loss target on the trajectory organized search again using this model."
Angelski R. "Domestic guided missiles "air-air". The missile RVV-AE"

as you can see all missile need is data about target, how this data has been obtained by plane is generally not important

(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 2
RE: IRST engagement - 11/5/2014 12:49:37 PM   
Dutchie999


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Joined: 10/8/2014
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Interesting. That seems like a nice feature to not light up yours enemy's RWR. Kind of like a stealth engagement. Especially if you have a missile with heat seeker. Do you know if this is also possible with american teen series aircraft and the AMRAAM? (F-15, F-16, F-18).

(in reply to Triode)
Post #: 3
RE: IRST engagement - 11/5/2014 2:21:23 PM   
Triode

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 9/26/2014
Status: offline 		Well american weapon systems not exacty my strong side but according to:

"IRST21 uses infrared search and track technology to detect and track airborne threats with weapon-quality accuracy"
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/irst/mfc-irst-pc.pdf

what Lockheed want to say under term "weapon-quality accuracy" I do not know




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Post #: 4
RE: IRST engagement - 11/7/2014 12:05:34 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline 		Something to consider is an IRST will only give angular information and NOT distance unless it's equipped with a laser rangefinder. I can only really speak of Russian systems, but we worried about IRSTS on FULCRUM/FLANKER because they could smack us with AA-11/ARCHER (IR-guided AAM) and we'd never get any warning.

(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 5
RE: IRST engagement - 11/7/2014 2:04:34 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline 		Also, an IRSTS would still be beneficial with radar-guided missiles because you could point your radar (without powering it on) at the IRSTS target, and when ready to execute the radar will power up and very quickly acquire the target, reducing the warning time the target gets to the attack.

(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 6
RE: IRST engagement - 11/9/2014 6:11:22 PM   
DeltaIV


Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline 		Most Russian IRST systems are equipped with laser rangefinders now (think Mig-29/Su-27/30+, etc.).

They're usually able to interact with helmet mounted sights too.

From what i have read, IRST as a system has it's own limitations and the range can be hard to obtain
even if equipped with laser range finder. Although they claim something like 50-100km depending on the
aspect of target A/C for the IR sensor, the laser range finder usually diminishes around 20-30kms or so
(beam divergence, atmospheric conditions) -- so it might be hard to obtain the range reading at greater
distances. Note that some IRST variants (eg. OEPS-30I - see the link below) can guide AG laser-guided
missiles as well.

Main Russian A/C optronics contractor - Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant:
http://www.uomz.ru/en/production/special_technics/optronic_systems_for_aircraft

Some bits on OLS-35 IRST (SU-30):
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.cz/2009/10/ols-35-irst-option-for-su-30-family.html

OLS-35 propagation leaflet:
http://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 7
RE: IRST engagement - 11/10/2014 12:07:56 PM   
Dutchie999


Posts: 117
Joined: 10/8/2014
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Nobody has any info on american systems? Because if this capability is widely used, then I think it would be a very good addition to Command. Firing without setting off your enemy's RWR is an awesome tool to have.

For example I imagine a scenario where a AWACS/ELINT picks up an enemy fighter, F-35 is sent in around the fighters IRST and Radar cone. Uses the AWACS/ELINT position to find the enemy aircraft from long range through EOTS. Establishes target data, engages with AMRAAM's and immediately turns around and leaves the scene. Mid course data be send from the EOTS if its still tracking (dunno if this works *360) or from the AWACS/ELINT assets. Result: the enemy aircraft knows nothing.

(in reply to DeltaIV)
Post #: 8
RE: IRST engagement - 11/10/2014 4:42:39 PM   
schroedi

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/10/2014
Status: offline 		I only know it from DCS: A-10C
You can slave the Aim-9 seeker to the TGP. I don't know if this works with other missles like an Aim-120.

< Message edited by schroedi -- 11/10/2014 5:42:52 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: IRST engagement - 11/10/2014 5:54:18 PM   
Tomcat84

 

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999

Nobody has any info on american systems?


It is probably classified whether or not their systems have that kind of capability...

_____________________________

My Scenarios and Tutorials for Command

(Scenarios focus on air-warfare :) )

(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 10
RE: IRST engagement - 11/11/2014 12:12:14 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		F-14's had them albeit much earlier technology. USN and USAF will be getting them. First will be pod and then later integrated.

Here's an F-16 Aggressor with Pod (Article nice as well)

http://aviationintel.com/exclusive-usaf-aggressors-fly-with-irst-po/

Here's the F/A-18. Notice its integrated on the fuel tank

http://news.usni.org/2014/02/20/super-hornet-tests-new-infrared-air-air-targeting-sensor

Notice the Command DB3k's 2017 F/A-18 has it.

So try it out.





_____________________________


(in reply to Tomcat84)
Post #: 11
RE: IRST engagement - 11/12/2014 2:22:37 PM   
Dutchie999


Posts: 117
Joined: 10/8/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

F-14's had them albeit much earlier technology. USN and USAF will be getting them. First will be pod and then later integrated.

Here's an F-16 Aggressor with Pod (Article nice as well)

http://aviationintel.com/exclusive-usaf-aggressors-fly-with-irst-po/

Here's the F/A-18. Notice its integrated on the fuel tank

http://news.usni.org/2014/02/20/super-hornet-tests-new-infrared-air-air-targeting-sensor

Notice the Command DB3k's 2017 F/A-18 has it.

So try it out.


Thanks for the reply Mike. I am surprised that they never used this technology (except F14) before. It seems like a small investment for a huge tactical advantage.

Is it save to assume that the F-35 will also have this capability through EOTS or DAS? If so can you guys please add this to the game ? I would love to play with that!

PS: Since the Russians already have this technology can I assume that the Mig's and Sukhoi's (+ T-50) in Command are capable of this?

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 12
RE: IRST engagement - 11/12/2014 3:38:50 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		If we find any credible info that a platform has or will have a capability, sensor, weapon we'll try and add it.

Thanks

Mike

_____________________________


(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 13
RE: IRST engagement - 9/10/2015 11:21:05 AM   
mviniegra85

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/29/2015
Status: offline 		OEPS-29 and OEPS-27 cannot provide complete fire solutions to SARH guided AAM like R-27R unless they work in the cooperation mode with the radar. In this mode, if the IRST unit of the OEPS-xx could detect the target it will angle-track it (angular accuracy of IRST is higher than radar's) and RLS will emit in semi-continuous mode to obtain range information.
When firing the SARH missile, the radar will emit continuously to provide both tracking information to the SARH seeker on-board the missile and the MCGU command to the rearward faced aerial on the cruciform fins of the missile; the MCGU is multiplexed with the main illumination transmission and it is ‘hidden’ into the sidelobes of the radar emission.

So the short answer is this:

a) In the baseline Su-27S and MiG-29 you can’t fire a SARH missile by only using the IRST system.
b) The IRST system is connected to the radar system (they both make part of the SUV-27 and SUV-29 fire control system) and can cooperate among themselves.

c) If the Lazur’-M or similar ground-to-air datalink is functioning and transmitting to the aircraft, this will receive latent range information of the target, not needing both radar and IRST systems to work in cooperation until lock-on.

d) A fully passive attack is only possible with IR homing missiles having the chance to employ different modes supported and not supported by the functioning FCS.

The MiG-31 has an IRST that works in cooperation with radar, datalink systems (air-to-air and ground-to-air) and improved inertial navigation system allowing to triangulate the target’s range allowing a fully passive R-40TD from the beginning or a lately transmitting shot by R-33.


< Message edited by mviniegra85 -- 9/10/2015 12:22:56 PM >

(in reply to Dutchie999)
Post #: 14
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