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RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops

 
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RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/14/2014 1:06:19 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I wanted to gather more feedback, but if it's so important I can try to ask Joel next week about a possible release of a hotfix. We already have ~10 improvements ready.

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 91
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/14/2014 1:16:19 PM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline 		Hm, maybe it's better to wait until you have more feedback.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 92
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/14/2014 1:27:28 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The problem is I don't want to overload 2by3/Matrix with requests to publish updated versions very often. Though I think that 1.08.1 could be published as a hotfix (zip attachment on the forum), just like 1.07.13 and .14 were published. This would simplify things a bit.

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 93
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/14/2014 2:57:32 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		To me, the most important thing about future updates is that they not require me to do a full re-start of a campaign.
If that cannot be helped, all I would ask is to be notified so I could stop playing my current game, possibly. I still find Turn 1 daunting as the Axis.

I can wait and wait (I mean, we did already) for updates.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 94
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/14/2014 11:46:54 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		An oddity: Kishinev shows no color effects when Soviet, or captured, or occupied... doesn't mean much but...?

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 95
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/15/2014 10:41:17 AM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Scary oddity: if "check for updates" is tried from WitE initial display panel, error condition displayed. (But, updates may be checked in members forum.)

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 96
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/15/2014 4:16:15 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I noticed that not only do new Soviet armies built by the human player have no SUs, neither do the AI ones that come in as reinforcement. Not quite what I was expecting, but whatever. It may not be possible to code one differently from the other.

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 97
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/15/2014 6:57:06 PM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
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quote:

I noticed that not only do new Soviet armies built by the human player have no SUs, neither do the AI ones that come in as reinforcement. Not quite what I was expecting, but whatever. It may not be possible to code one differently from the other.


Do you mean the armies that come for example on T3? They have always been empty unless you deselect Lock HQ Support and have support units in STAVKA.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 98
1.08 Discussion - Ju 87 - 11/15/2014 7:04:00 PM   
Oshawott

 

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you morvael for making changes to the Ju-87. It is now the best attack airplane in the German arsenal. Also, the groups don't loose morale anymore and can be used throughout the campaign. And I also noticed that they can finally destroy tanks!!!

Are they too strong now? Probably because I can destroy all Russian front airbases on T1 with just the Ju87. But definitely much better then the old system.


(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 99
RE: 1.08 Discussion - Ju 87 - 11/15/2014 7:35:39 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I did nothing with Ju. Maybe Denniss?

(in reply to Oshawott)
Post #: 100
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/15/2014 11:07:16 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

To me, the most important thing about future updates is that they not require me to do a full re-start of a campaign.
If that cannot be helped, all I would ask is to be notified so I could stop playing my current game, possibly. I still find Turn 1 daunting as the Axis.

I can wait and wait (I mean, we did already) for updates.



All the changes are minor really from what I see, nothing that will effect any games.

I believe from here on out, unless something crazy is found.

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 101
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 10:50:31 AM   
Lictuel

 

Posts: 221
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		I noticed something strange with regards to displayed CV. Using the GC 41 with better CV approximation I noticed there are quite a few units, all in open terrain, that have less defensive CV than offensive CV when displaying both on the counter.
Is that a bug in the calculation of the displayed CV or can units in fact have less CV on the defensive than on the offensive? I think I never saw that with older patches so I guess it is new. The units in question are German, I first noticed it on Mot and Arm divisions but after some looking I also found Inf divisions with that oddity.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 102
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 10:53:47 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		I've seen the same: some Soviet units show an attack cv of 9 and defend of 7.

Its an interesting mode but I'm not sure it would be my display of choice, its fascinating to see how leadership affects things, but you pretty quickly get to stack of XX vs stack of XX. But it really helps for trying things out and testing ideas as you have better feedback.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lictuel)
Post #: 103
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 11:26:58 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		This is correct (higher attack CV than defensive CV) due to the ability to get a doubled CV during attack after passing a single (per unit) leader combat roll, which applies only to the attacker.

I'm considering dividing the alternate CVs by 2 to get lower values so that X will be less common.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 104
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 11:45:32 AM   
Lictuel

 

Posts: 221
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		Would that require a restart? I guess not since you only change the calculation routine?
Also is the possibility to get doubled CV included in the CV approximation? E.g. a 50% chance of passing that test gives 1.5 the displayed CV that a 0% chance would give?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 105
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 12:17:23 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		No restart required as it is only code change.

That's how exactly the "alt CV" is calculated - by following the random CV routine (used in combat) and substituting random rolls with expected values.

(in reply to Lictuel)
Post #: 106
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 3:16:22 PM   
Lictuel

 

Posts: 221
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		Is that CV double also included in the unmodified CV that is shown in the combat result screens? I had quite a few combats where my CV was halved in a deliberate assault with no enemy air forces and little to no artillery.

Also I had a strange combat result (forgot to take a screenshot...) where the attacker lost, inflicted minor casualties on the defender (~180 men) but no losses at all for the attacker. No idea if that was just a possible but unlikely result or if that might be an indicator of a possible problem.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 107
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 3:24:45 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		As a player choosing NOT to use the enhanced CV routine, I want to note that the existing (i.e. normal) CV calculation/display under 1.08 seems to be very accurate of performance.


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Lictuel)
Post #: 108
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/16/2014 9:07:40 PM   
musashi64

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 9/6/2013
From: Bran, Romania
Status: offline 		When you will take a look at the OOB , I believe that the "Alpini" Italian Divisions (Julia, Tridentina , Cuneense) would deserve the "elite" status.
They were indeed, able to break the encirclement at Nikolaevka (during operation "litlle Saturn") operated by 1st Guards Army and 6th Army.
A famous document from Stavka said that the Italian "alpini" Corps was the only axis corps that could say to go out of Soviet Union being not defeated.

Kind Regards

Roberto Carrosio

Published Sources:
Giulio Bedeschi: "Centomila gavette di ghiaccio"
Mario Rigoni Stern : "Il sergente nella neve" (English Version : "the Sergeant in the snow"
David Glantz: "Endgame at Staliongrad: Book Two- December 1942/February 1943)

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 109
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/17/2014 1:10:07 AM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4653
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline 		That's it. I want my elite Italian alpine unit pronto!

Morale 86

(in reply to musashi64)
Post #: 110
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/17/2014 7:47:11 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Did the Soviets lose 2 of their 4 IL-2 plants? The ones in Moscow are now gone, on top of the fact factory build limit dropped from 54 (not 50 as stated in specific aircraft change 220) to 44. If so, that slashes weekly IL-2 production from a max of 216 to 88.

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 111
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/17/2014 7:52:17 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I think the Mig-3 1942 you mentioned in other thread has something to do with IL-2 production.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 112
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/17/2014 8:10:18 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I pulled up the '42 scenario and think I get it, but the way the upgrade path is portrayed is rather messy. Someone can correct me, but...

It looks like the MiG-3 is supposed to upgrade to a MiG-3 1942. But that is a phantom aircraft which is not produced. Instead, it upgrades in January to an IL-2, so if Moscow is in danger of capture, the Soviet player NEEDS TO EVACUATE THE MiG-3 PLANTS IN MOSCOW IF IT IS TO RETAIN FULL IL-2 PRODUCTION.

Contrary to what the upgrade path shows with MiG3, there is no evidence that later it upgrades to the Yak-1B in '42.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 113
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/17/2014 8:19:28 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Factory upgrade is what factories turn into. Normal upgrade is about air groups changing aircraft from one model to the next (it's easier to swap to "upgrade" than completely unrelated model).

edit: I'm sure you need to ask Denniss for an explanation on how it works.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/17/2014 9:21:28 PM >

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 114
RE: 1.08 Discussion - AI and the Air Recon Ops - 11/18/2014 1:38:02 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I pulled up the '42 scenario and think I get it, but the way the upgrade path is portrayed is rather messy. Someone can correct me, but...

It looks like the MiG-3 is supposed to upgrade to a MiG-3 1942. But that is a phantom aircraft which is not produced. Instead, it upgrades in January to an IL-2, so if Moscow is in danger of capture, the Soviet player NEEDS TO EVACUATE THE MiG-3 PLANTS IN MOSCOW IF IT IS TO RETAIN FULL IL-2 PRODUCTION.

Contrary to what the upgrade path shows with MiG3, there is no evidence that later it upgrades to the Yak-1B in '42.
Intention was historial production + to force the soviet player to move facs or face the danger of losing valuable production. Il-2 facs did not magically appear in the Urals, the machinery had to be taken from somewhere.
Yak-1B is the unit upgrade path so MiG-3 in air units try to switch to Yak-1B once available.
The same need for evacation is the LaGG-3 fac in Taganrog, maybe some more ....

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 115
RE: 1.08 Discussion - 11/20/2014 3:05:40 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Query:
Why can't the AI opponent stage it's airbases better?


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to BJP III)
Post #: 116
RE: 1.08 Discussion - 11/20/2014 4:30:58 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		N. Vatutin appears to be missing in the Blau scenario.

Put him back in a future patch please

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 117
RE: 1.08 Discussion - 11/20/2014 7:14:22 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

Axis FZ (forts) AP cost in .08.

FZ #1-50 cost 4 AP
FZ #51-100 cost 5 AP
FZ #101-150 cost 6 AP

Is this correct? thx

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 118
RE: 1.08 Discussion - 11/20/2014 7:51:46 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		I don't think so. Don't have over 150 FZ and the current costs for a new one is 46 APs.

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 119
RE: 1.08 Discussion - 11/20/2014 8:18:44 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		1-50: 4
51: 5
52: 6
53: 7
150 max

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 120
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