RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 10:09:20 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Mods should be more active here. For now we have to endure such posts, but I suggest trying to ignore them, rather than taking offense. There are still some polite people on the forum, obviously not that many since WitE is now a "deprecated" game. But I still like it, and my Red Army has still some miles to Berlin left in my first (and last?) PBEM campaign game.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 31

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 10:30:15 AM

M60A3TTS

Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

When are we getting another update on your game? It has been a while, hasn't it?

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 32

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 10:37:44 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The problem with Pelton's post is it is explicitly designed to silence and bully those who do not share his rather individual approach and beliefs. So what will happen, is that more and more of those who take a different view to him will shut up and stop posting. As that happens more the only voices on this forum will be those whom Pelton approves of - to the detriment of the game, and the community who like this sort of game.

quote:

No, I am simply stating that people need to base things on people that are of equal skill level.

Comparing apples to oranges is what made 1.07 a complete disaster and drove away allot of great players.

Sorry if it seems like bulling.

This is why I play 3 games at once, asking 2by3 to make changes based on one game is simply not helpful in anyway and over the yrs hurt WitE development.

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 33

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 10:39:55 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

When are we getting another update on your game? It has been a while, hasn't it?

Sorry for that, I intend to return to the AAR once I stop working on 1.08 :) But you want these fixes coming, right?

(in reply to M60A3TTS)

Post #: 34

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 11:04:54 AM

Northern Star

Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline

I expect an edit of Pelton's post soon and in the future a clear change of manners and language. At the moment green button goes on... until that I will not post anymore in the forum. I always used good manners in the forum and I want the same thing from other people.

_____________________________

War in the East alpha tester

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPV9JWWtOQ0

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 35

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 1:55:34 PM

carlkay58

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline

I am glad that WitW has dropped the HQBU from the game. It has always been abuse friendly and difficult to control. The new logistics system still allows you to do the intended effect of HQBU without the possible abuses.

(in reply to Northern Star)

Post #: 36

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 2:33:22 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

HQBU is now much more integrated with the supply system than before, and it's possible to remove some of the bonuses it gives, just like early 1.08 did. Less chance for abuses, when less MP given. It's the weekly scale and 50 MPs (combined with thin front, empty rear and instant loss of MP and fighting capability of isolated units) that are causing the biggest encirclements to be possible. HQBU is deemed main culprit, while its actually only a small part of a long chain of controversial rules.

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 37

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 5:03:10 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Hello everyone,

I received a few reports and managed to see the original post before Pelton edited it. It appears he has now removed his comments, which is good.

However, to be clear on the forum rules and standards... personal attack and insults are not allowed and a pattern of these does constitute a bannable offense. Trolling is also not allowed.

Now trash talk does have a long history among gamers and especially among close friends (offline and online) it can have a place when you know it will be taken in jest and will not cause offense. However, it's not something you unleash on someone you do not know well. The original post also crossed the line in that the "trash talk" got pretty personal and I did not see any indication that it was expected or accepted by the person it was aimed at - it was clearly unwelcome.

Pelton, keep the trash talk to your close wargaming buddies who are comfortable with it. The best players are not only skilled but also good sportsmen. On the public forum, you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to avoiding personal insults and treating your fellow wargamers with politeness and courtesy. I'm guessing since you edited your post since I first saw it before I had time to deal with it that you also understand this. This is an official warning and a repeat of this will result in a temporary ban.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 38

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/10/2014 6:44:30 PM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

Yes Sir

Understood

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 39

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 2:24:07 AM

Oshawott

Posts: 1353
Joined: 10/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

Hello everyone,

I received a few reports and managed to see the original post before Pelton edited it. It appears he has now removed his comments, which is good.

However, to be clear on the forum rules and standards... personal attack and insults are not allowed and a pattern of these does constitute a bannable offense. Trolling is also not allowed.

Now trash talk does have a long history among gamers and especially among close friends (offline and online) it can have a place when you know it will be taken in jest and will not cause offense. However, it's not something you unleash on someone you do not know well. The original post also crossed the line in that the "trash talk" got pretty personal and I did not see any indication that it was expected or accepted by the person it was aimed at - it was clearly unwelcome.

Pelton, keep the trash talk to your close wargaming buddies who are comfortable with it. The best players are not only skilled but also good sportsmen. On the public forum, you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to avoiding personal insults and treating your fellow wargamers with politeness and courtesy. I'm guessing since you edited your post since I first saw it before I had time to deal with it that you also understand this. This is an official warning and a repeat of this will result in a temporary ban.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, I am actually not satisfied with this. It is way too simple to insult another person like this and then to simply edit the post later without comment. You know very well that this person has a long history of rude comments and insults. Just a week ago he started the exact same rant against wac29 and nothing was done there either.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3740286&mpage=1&key=�

It is no fun to have a hobby ruined by this kind of hate and anger. I understand that you are focused on marketing other products. But the same will happen in the WitW forum. It's just a matter of time.

Sorry to say but you have lost me as a customer.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 40

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 3:10:09 AM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Osh,

I am very sorry to see you go. I have admired your many contributions. I have also decided to make no further purchases from Matrix or 2x3.

And Erik, I suggest you make further investigations, as you see fit.

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 41

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 3:28:15 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

quote:

Hello everyone,

I received a few reports and managed to see the original post before Pelton edited it. It appears he has now removed his comments, which is good.

However, to be clear on the forum rules and standards... personal attack and insults are not allowed and a pattern of these does constitute a bannable offense. Trolling is also not allowed.

Now trash talk does have a long history among gamers and especially among close friends (offline and online) it can have a place when you know it will be taken in jest and will not cause offense. However, it's not something you unleash on someone you do not know well. The original post also crossed the line in that the "trash talk" got pretty personal and I did not see any indication that it was expected or accepted by the person it was aimed at - it was clearly unwelcome.

Pelton, keep the trash talk to your close wargaming buddies who are comfortable with it. The best players are not only skilled but also good sportsmen. On the public forum, you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to avoiding personal insults and treating your fellow wargamers with politeness and courtesy. I'm guessing since you edited your post since I first saw it before I had time to deal with it that you also understand this. This is an official warning and a repeat of this will result in a temporary ban.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, I am actually not satisfied with this. It is way too simple to insult another person like this and then to simply edit the post later without comment. You know very well that this person has a long history of rude comments and insults. Just a week ago he started the exact same rant against wac29 and nothing was done there either.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3740286&mpage=1&key=�

It is no fun to have a hobby ruined by this kind of hate and anger. I understand that you are focused on marketing other products. But the same will happen in the WitW forum. It's just a matter of time.

Sorry to say but you have lost me as a customer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: wac29

It seems to me the HQ buildup rules under 1.08 will result in much stronger german 41 offensives because:

The 25 hex rule vs. 20MP. This is especially significant in the center for turns 3-6 because of all the rivers and in the north for turns 6-12 because of the forests. This will result in buildups much further, hex-wise, from the railheads than before.

Being able to move the HQ on the turn of buildup. This eliminates the elaborate positioning of HQ's the turn before the buildup and of calculating the 20MP range. It will also enable buildups turn after turn vs. before was every other turn with the same HQ. The small penalty of getting slightly less supply because of using up a percentage of your movement points is overwhelmed, to me, by the flexibility of being able to move it at all on the buildup turn.

Re-assigning units to different HQs to save AP still works. For example, 2 corps of 3 mobile units each. Reassign the three units in the second corps to the first. Do the buildup with all six assigned to the first corps. AP cost is about 32 vs. 2 buildups of about 25 each =50. Because of the lower AP reassignment cost it will cost 6-12 AP to reassign roundtrip, resulting in a savings of 8-12 AP net.

I think you will see German players doing buildups multiple turns in a row on the same units and this will be quite difficult for the Red Army in 1941 to stop. Plus, with the lower AP reassignment costs for units and leaders there should be more AP available for buildups.

Not sure WTH you are but your full of you know what.

Data is what counts not some one I have never seen do sht on the field of play.

I am playing what I consider the best SHC player still playing, a very good SHC player and one I consider ok to good.

The results so far are what I kinda thought going in Saper has a WOS built on turn 5 50+ stacks at landbridge and 20-30 south of Leningrad and south his standard blob of counter attacking.

So far going by my game vs Saper SHC is still WAY WAY over powered
vs one of the others I think I will win or draw
and the 3rd draw or lose.

Play the game vs people(known on forums) that have some skills then post the DATA.

Just throwing sht against the wall is just that.

Post results.

Thanks for posting bro, but play then bitch.

I have a long long history of both.

Yeah, that is *way* out of line.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 42

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 4:12:32 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Guys, do you really have to react this way? A display of childish behaviour wouldn't stop me from enjoying a game I like and which I spent hundreds of hours playing, and from talking with other, polite, people. This is just the internet, such behaviour is to be expected, even if unwelcome, but it shouldn't affect you so much. Indeed there is the green button or a way to report this to mods, but that should be it. Do not take it personal, report, ignore, carry on, return to the main point of discussion, which is how to fix HQBU.

Those tricks mentioned by wac29 will be gone in next version. I wanted to know if they would reduce the effectiveness of Oshawott's buildups, by knowing which HQs and units were doing HQBU each turn. Still, I see main problems with the scale and supply system in general, not that it's all fault of just the HQBU.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 43

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 7:27:26 AM

schascha

Posts: 295
Joined: 1/3/2012
Status: offline

Please Oshawott don't leave.

I think 99% of the readers appreciate very much your contribution on this forum don't leave for just one guy who have a massive ego........ please.

We'll miss you

< Message edited by schascha -- 12/11/2014 8:28:18 AM >

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 44

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 8:30:08 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: schascha

Please Oshawott don't leave.

I think 99% of the readers appreciate very much your contribution on this forum don't leave for just one guy who have a massive ego........ please.

We'll miss you

fully agree .... I really enjoy Oshawatt's posts - skilled at the game, great writer and well aware of the subtle difference between competent play and rule abuse.

_____________________________

(in reply to schascha)

Post #: 45

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 11:25:46 AM

Huw Jones

Posts: 143
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline

Seems a bit silly to leave.

I suggest just not playing against problem people and report his actions, he will have less players to play against and sooner or later he will be banned, I for one will make sure I avoid him.

There should be plenty of other players to choose to play against.

Huw

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 46

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 12:58:39 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: schascha

Please Oshawott don't leave.

I think 99% of the readers appreciate very much your contribution on this forum don't leave for just one guy who have a massive ego........ please.

We'll miss you

fully agree .... I really enjoy Oshawatt's posts - skilled at the game, great writer and well aware of the subtle difference between competent play and rule abuse.

As do I.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 47

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 1:31:55 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
Erik, I am actually not satisfied with this. It is way too simple to insult another person like this and then to simply edit the post later without comment. You know very well that this person has a long history of rude comments and insults. Just a week ago he started the exact same rant against wac29 and nothing was done there either.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3740286&mpage=1&key=�

It is no fun to have a hobby ruined by this kind of hate and anger. I understand that you are focused on marketing other products. But the same will happen in the WitW forum. It's just a matter of time.

Sorry to say but you have lost me as a customer.

I'm very sorry to hear that, I hope you change your mind and stay with us. I believe we share the same goal of having a forum where we can all share our interest in our hobby without personal attacks or insults.

However, I think it's important to realize that you all live in the forums more than we possibly can. Due to our responsibilities, we come here as often as we can, but we're still visitors more than residents in our own forums just due to lack of time. So when you see a clear pattern, what I see may be just a snapshot or two here or there.

This is the first time I've see the thread and post you linked to above. It's way beyond what we consider acceptable here. Had I seen that then, he would have had an official warning then and been banned now. However, I've already issued Pelton a warning, he has agreed to stay within the rules going forward and our policy in these cases is to give any forum member a warning before we start banning. We've also long had a policy that once action is taken, we don't revisit for the same past infraction, we give the forum member a chance to follow the rules and look at future behavior.

I can promise that given this information, he is on very strict probation going forward. If he crosses the line one more time, he will be banned. Our policy is to start with temporary bans and only in the case of forum members who cannot stay within the rules even after a couple of temporary bans to go with a permanent ban. Generally warnings and temporary bans do work and I don't expect Pelton to cross the line again if he wants to stay an active member of this community.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Oshawott)

Post #: 48

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 1:33:41 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311
Osh,

I am very sorry to see you go. I have admired your many contributions. I have also decided to make no further purchases from Matrix or 2x3.

And Erik, I suggest you make further investigations, as you see fit.

Please see my reply to Oshawott above this one. I also hope that you change your mind and stay with us. If any future issues are reported to us, we'll take prompt action. You can e-mail me personally at erikr@matrixgames.com.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 49

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 2:53:20 PM

HITMAN202

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline

Yea, a big loss.

I wish Pelton would make a public apology.

Realistically, people will be disrespectful and even derogatory, but life goes on. Who knows the RL issues Pelton is facing (it doesn't excuse him), but he has "revealed" more insights to WITE than any other poster (IMO) and his love of the game helps me overlook his shortcomings. He has bit my a** more than a few times.

About HQBU's. Two massive historical Soviet isolations occurred at Kiev and Smolensk '41, both netting 500-700,00 troops. Even the best WITE Soviet players (like Saper) should be vulnerable to this danger. How to do it ??? Limit HQBU to 3-4 powerful maneuvers; even more powerful than presently allowed. ???

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 50

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 4:25:57 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

About HQBU's. Two massive historical Soviet isolations occurred at Kiev and Smolensk '41, both netting 500-700,00 troops.

Over what? A period from June 22 to August 5th. About 6 turns or so. Don't recall any build up at any time after the start.

Then there is this constant "Germans were winning the attrition war" stuff. That AGC received 23,000 replacements to offset 74.500 loses puts that to question.

And HQBU is not in WiTW IIRC.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 51

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 5:00:54 PM

HITMAN202

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline

Your opinions are far better than mine (IMO !!!) but an inherent Soviet problem '41 was that all fronts were in danger of collapse august-nov. How to recreate that historical reality ???

Maybe the solution (for me) is to stop the prattle and play this great game.

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 52

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 5:33:57 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Your opinions are far better than mine (IMO !!!) but an inherent Soviet problem '41 was that all fronts were in danger of collapse august-nov. How to recreate that historical reality ???

Maybe the solution (for me) is to stop the prattle and play this great game.

that is the real problem. There is a clear design decision not to nail either player to the 'hold at all costs' orders of their respective high commands but its clear that the pattern of the war that we recognise from history is heavily informed by the insane Soviet commands to SW Front to hold Kiev and the equally off the wall German commands to hold at Stalingrad.

I don't think there is an answer, but there are some tools. Morvael above makes the valid point that we focus on HQBU when its really only the most visible part of a set of supply problems that starts from the frictionless rai problem.

Here's my view;

a) the Germans lost, so the description of balance as a German victory in 1941 is false;
b) the Germans came near to winning in 1942 so anything that sets up that dynamic and prospect is good;
c) the need to evacuate HI and the lower Soviet industry multipliers in 1.08 will change a lot of the old run away Soviet play;
d) 1.08 covers b+c very well, and I think sets up a stalemated 1943 much more.
e) so what the problem remains ..

Which is really it. There are exploits in the game, its noticeably that WiTW has a lot of neat mechanisms that seem to directly address them. But 1.08xx WiTE is the game we'll have for at least one more design cycle (I'm assuming I properly understood the goal of a 1940-3 WiTW with a fleshed out naval system first). Against the AI, its easy - don't do them (which ever side you play). If I play the Soviets I tend to make the first mud turn of 1942 into a new scenario so I can correct the AI, get the Pzrs into the Ukraine and give it new orders so it won't launch a monumental drive on Cherepovets.

The game needs a routine to prioritise supply allocation, if my experience in the current AAR is valid then for the Soviets you are going to need to sit still before a major offensive. HQBU is that tool for the Germans, Morveal is trying to at least link it into the supply system. Its clear it can be abused.

I'd suggest go back to the very artificial rule that a HQ can't move the turn before - at least that stopped chaining - and maybe make it more expensive. The Germans tend to have few truck problems, but making HQBU burn off a lot may put them in a tricky position as the game goes on, so it becomes a jam today but gruel tomorrow option?

Problem is it comes down to attitude. I've nothing against the Pelton/Saper/Michael T mindset of exploit the rules to gain every last advantage. Just I'm not interested. I'd rather play opponents who use a degree of common sense.

Aurelian's comment way back in this thread is valid. In AGEOD's ACW if a Union player just builds up in the east, sends the best commanders over there, then its game over in 1862. AGEOD are working on a possible solution but of course the best is if you want a plausible (realistic) tussle then simply don't do it. In WiTE I'd suggest that German players forego the Lvov trick and Soviet players don't rail SW Front to Leningrad. That alone will get things more balanced.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/11/2014 6:35:43 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 53

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 6:06:49 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Spot on, loki100. I would also add that it's always a dynamic struggle between player relative skills and actual game balance. If both could be measured in absolute numbers imagine that the game favours the Axis (+1) while the Axis player has a skill of 1 and the Soviet player has a skill of 2. The game will look balanced to them. But if the player's skills would be the other way round? Game seems unbalanced for them, looking much more pro-Axis than it really is. Moving the balance to -1 "fixes" the game for those two players. But what about the first pair? Rinse and repeat until the world ends (in this case it means WitE 2.0 is launched). Game is what it is, and players must find a way of playing (including parameters, house rules, opponent selection, self-restraint) that will allow them to get maximum enjoyment possible. Such a complicated game will be never as close to ideal balance as chess. There are also some deeply ingrained design decisions that can't be addressed by a patch. I assume those who already play WitE learned to live with them, even if they don't agree completely with those. Finally there are issues caused by different outlook on the historical events, based on which books you read. Some say Barbarossa failed in late July. Some people believe in the uber skills of the German soldiers right up until 1945 and want that present in the game. We must again agree with the view that the authors of the game had, which must not equal to ours.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 54

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 6:34:39 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

...so if historians can't agree what was the high water mark of German invasion (July 41, December 41, November 42, July 43), how can we? :-) According to the last book I read what the Soviets did was exactly a wall of steel, which was defeated after the Germans did a HQBU, which according to some players should be banned (either WoS or HQBU or both)

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 55

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 6:43:56 PM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've nothing against the Pelton/Saper/Michael T mindset of exploit the rules to gain every last advantage.
Just I'm not interested. I'd rather play opponents who use a degree of common sense.

One reason I really like WitW is 2by3 really took the weak areas of WitE and made them solid. So far I see no need for house rules and there seem to be few exploits of rulesets.

The "mindset" of an exploit yes I agree some take advantage more then others, but just about everyone is taking
advantage of them by some %. Knowingly or not, to some degree.

The "mindset people" (bad people to many) are the ones who find the weak areas of the game or any game for that matter, which in turn get fixed.

So in a way people should be thankful for people like MT/Saper/Pelton ect ect for how solid WitE has become and how solid WitW is.

We find weak points in the system and designers correct them.

Again sorry I crossed a line in the sand for some people on a personal level, but I play with in the rule set the designers code into a game.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/11/2014 7:46:03 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 56

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 6:52:09 PM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

...so if historians can't agree what was the high water mark of German invasion (July 41, December 41, November 42, July 43), how can we? :-) According to the last book I read what the Soviets did was exactly a wall of steel, which was defeated after the Germans did a HQBU, which according to some players should be banned (either WoS or HQBU or both)

WitW has a logistics build up which is more historical, but still a good tool for exploiting a breakthrough.

IF HQBU was removed then mobile divisions at or withen 10 hexes of a railhead should get max MP's after sitting for a turn.

BUT the real issue is the Russian side simply runs and with draws 2-3 hexes per turn and its impossible to pocket any units.

Even under the current rulset vs Saper and smokendave they take less then 2.2 million KIA because its impossible vs an above average SHC player to pocket units because they simply can with draw out of MP range.

I be in favor of removing HQBU as I and many other have stated for 2 years if you make SHC fight forward.

With no HQBU there will be less then 1.5 million SHC KIA and a 7 million man SHC army by December 1941 = Middle Earth

Only way to "fix" things is a better VP system of which WitW has, not sure that can be done to the current system

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/11/2014 8:22:18 PM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 57

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 7:23:38 PM

M60A3TTS

Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

I think you're dismissing too easily what Dave has lost in arms points, especially if they were in chunks that would have benefitted from later multipliers. He won't feel it now because if they had been evacuated, they would be returning nothing anyways with 50+% damage. But down the road, he will have rifle units that need to be fleshed out with lots of Soviet goodies. Those are now going to come to him later in the game. So you have bought time for defense down the road.

Also, with Heavy Industry now a factor, supply may be more restrictive. Having a huge army with these two things weighed in may mean an army more along the lines of Czarist Russia, undersupplied and underequipped. Maybe not to the same extent, but the potential is certainly there. Plus, we have yet to see how the Soviet 40 morale plays out in your games come the summer. Loki is feeling the effects of that right now against SigUp. I suspect Dave will feel the pain no less.

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 58

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 7:39:33 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Aurelian's comment way back in this thread is valid. In AGEOD's ACW if a Union player just builds up in the east, sends the best commanders over there, then its game over in 1862. AGEOD are working on a possible solution but of course the best is if you want a plausible (realistic) tussle then simply don't do it. In WiTE I'd suggest that German players forego the Lvov trick and Soviet players don't rail SW Front to Leningrad. That alone will get things more balanced.

The South can do it too. And with better leaders and brigades, it's game over before the first winter. (It was done to me..:) )

My current PBEM WiTE, the Axis player didn't do a Lvov, and I'm throwing tank/mech divisionas at him, retreating a little, but not an all out run away.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 59

RE: HQ Buildup in 1.08 - 12/11/2014 7:50:53 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Your opinions are far better than mine (IMO !!!) but an inherent Soviet problem '41 was that all fronts were in danger of collapse august-nov. How to recreate that historical reality ???

Maybe the solution (for me) is to stop the prattle and play this great game.

The problem is if you run into a rules lawyer, one who games the system, and you don't, you're toast. And then you have the ones who want to put restrictions on how the Soviets play because they want to be a Guderian. (Stalin didn't run away, so you can't either. To which I'll say, "Well Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad was never taken so you can't take either.")

The designers, and I addressed this long ago, deliberately did not want either side to be hamstrung with Hitler/Stalin boobery. So you get to make your own boobery.

But forcing such? No.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to HITMAN202)

Post #: 60