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Freighters! - 12/28/2014 6:56:34 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Ok, so they aren't the most glamorous of the ships, they aren't sleek and fast, nor do they have overwhelming firepower, but... they are probably the most necessary ships in game. After all, your economy collapses without them. They are also pirate magnets.

My question is, what is the best freighter design? Go for speed, defense or cargo capacity? Put a weapon on them or simply have them fast and well shielded enough to run from aggressors?

And what about cargo capacity? How much is enough?

Personally, I've found that the game simply under-utilizes the freighter designs I give it. Or even the default designs that come with the game. I've got freighters with 6500 cargo capacity, and they are hauling 75 units of a single resource. Its a complete waste of resources to make a freighter that large if it isn't going to haul its capacity.

Basically I've come to the conclusion that smaller freighters with only 1, 2, and 3 cargo bays and more engines should be sufficient. Keep them small, fast and cheap to minimize the cost to your civilian economy.

Thoughts on the matter?

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RE: Freighters! - 12/28/2014 8:22:39 PM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Freighters can be pain in most situations, the small vessels would have a advantage of getting out in one piece, they are fast. Only probably is that they carry smaller loads. As long you don't get caught in gravity well or device, you should be okay.

Now I am not sure about the AIs doing this, those small freighters should not travel beyond two clicks on the map or will run out of fuel. I have seen many of them carry few resources to maximize loads. The AIs doing these freight runs aren't that smart at all and if you don't pay attention, it will eat up your fuel reserved quickly.

Too bad the designer didn't finish up this AIs on freight runs. Wish freighters check in...
A)make sure there plenty of fuels in reserved at spaceport in that location, if it above 10k depending on commerce runs in that sector before doing another run.
B)there enough resources at base before transferring them to another location. otherwise go back to option A)
C)if resources are capped depending on spaceport level and colony population, then get more fuels to haul.
D)after making final run, while at the destination, pick up something that can be transfer back (if needed).

Most important issues is small freighters shouldn't travel beyond two clicks, three for medium and four for large freighters.

Love the game, but feel it is not finish or polish yet.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 4:58:33 AM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline 		I've seen freighters carrying larger loads, but ultimately I think the issue is that the game doesn't seem to prioritize freighters by size.

For example, it seems to send large freighters for small jobs, like such-and-such empire ordered 75 units of whatever, rather than reserving large freighters for big jobs, like shuttling large amounts of resources from mining stations to planetary stockpiles.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 6:29:30 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		I believe the key lies in the mining platforms. I build huge platforms with lots of mining utinsils. The freighters can only carry what has been mined and if you have weak mining stations you are going to get small loads. Increase the number of mining tools an excavating tools (for luxuries). The storage of minining facilities is large enough but the amount of mining equipment is not.

As far as evading pirates. The faster the ships the better. I put 4 shields and a lot of thrusters on my civilian ships mostly and I don't worry about the number of clicks they can go anymore. A fast ship with good shields can evade anything. As an example of my excellent designs I had over 49 million credits saved in a matter of no time playing as the Humans. Revenue was the least of my worries.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 6:36:01 PM   
twinkypillow

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		i have yet to figure out freighter algorithms .. and the developer hasn't even figured it out either..

so when my pirate homebase spaceport was abandoned and i built a new home base space port in another system, all my 60 freighters barely moved to fill up my other new "home" base space port..

i think they just started to now though..


so, how does one transfer the original old large space port supplies to a new system? i abandoned the old large space port becuase it got over-run with enemies etc.. so now i have to start fresh with a new large space port on a gas planet and waiting for my 60+ freighters to fill it.. but alas.. they sit around the original large abandoned space port with 100,000 of caslon and silicon..etc.. ah the joy..

< Message edited by pumkinfacer22 -- 12/30/2014 7:38:45 PM >

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 7:24:56 PM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		That what I did, so I had to pay attention to the supply stocks and the traffic. Usually if I have too much of whatever, I will disabled that mining stations nearby. So they will focus on what I want more. When ever you build another colony or station, it will start moving resources there, but it will depend on colony population and/or level of space port.

I manage to play one colony on the edge with 1400x15 and wipe out three civilizations as well minor. The tough parts is looking for strategic resources that aren't nearby. So I made re-supply ships as "Strip Miner" to mine them from four or more clicks away. And "Harvester" to collect those rare luxury resources. The game is pretty easy once you know what you are doing, as long you have the resources to survive on.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 7:25:29 PM   
Aeson

 

Posts: 784
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quote:

so, how does one transfer the original old large space port supplies to a new system? i abandoned the old large space port becuase it got over-run with enemies etc.. so now i have to start fresh with a new large space port on a gas planet and waiting for my 60+ freighters to fill it.. but alas.. they sit around the original large abandoned space port with 100,000 of caslon and silicon..etc.. ah the joy..

There isn't really a way to transfer all the resources from one location to another. The closest you can come is to build as many ships as you can, consuming as many of the strategic resources present at the world as possible, and then move those ships to the location you want the resources delivered to and scrap the ships at the shipyard there. Otherwise, you're going to have to wait for your freighters to shift resources around - and don't forget, freighters tend to try to distribute resources between shipyards in a somewhat equitable manner, not create a massive supply dump at one location.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 7:34:11 PM   
twinkypillow

 

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quote:

I will disabled that mining stations nearby.


right... and i can't wait to hear how you "disable" mining stations????

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RE: Freighters! - 12/30/2014 8:23:50 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Pretty sure we have no control over whether or not a mining station will mine.

There is a trick (which I am not a fan of) to use military ships with cargo bays and mining engines to give you control over mining (you can order the ship to mine a planet). As I said, it works, I have done it myself, but it is a monster of micro-management, and not really keeping in the spirit of the game (just IMO).

Once I get done modding my ship templates and seeing how the AI handles having more efficient mining stations (more cargo bays and 3 x luxury with 3 x mining or 2 x gas extractor) and smaller cargo ships, I'll report some findings. Bear in mind, I do not work quickly, so it could be quite some time before I get there.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 1:57:54 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I look forward to seeing some testing Shark7.

That said, as Bebop Cola mentioned, there is a small proportion of freighters that do use full capacity. When you add a few cargo bays (e.g. making that all equivalent to a large freighter) you'll see that extra space used sometimes as well. I never find the private sector short on cash even on Extreme so I'm not sure there is much of a downside to larger designs (you can add more engines to keep them high speed) so that's what I've normally applied ingame.

I'd recommend a test under otherwise identical conditions with three cases: default, less cargo bays, and also a test with more cargo bays.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 3:12:25 AM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/9/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I believe the key lies in the mining platforms. I build huge platforms with lots of mining utinsils. The freighters can only carry what has been mined and if you have weak mining stations you are going to get small loads. Increase the number of mining tools an excavating tools (for luxuries). The storage of minining facilities is large enough but the amount of mining equipment is not.

This has not been my experience. I have mining stations with 20k or more resources in their cargo holds, and I still see large freighters picking up small loads.

Now, that might make some manner of sense for common resources you already have large stockpiles of, but one would think rare resources would have a high priority for large freighters, and that those freighters need to take everything they can cram into their cargo bays every single trip. Korrabian spice stockpiles need to be sitting at a planet, from which they can be traded to other empires or wherever, not building up in a mining station's cargo bays. If that means the private sector needs to order more large freighters dedicated to ensuring it's efficiently brought home, then so be it.

< Message edited by Bebop Cola -- 12/31/2014 4:13:59 AM >

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 4:31:32 AM   
NephilimNexus

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 9/2/2014
Status: offline
quote:

right... and i can't wait to hear how you "disable" mining stations????


Refit them without any mining engines... or to be more specific, the wrong kind. Gas on an ore mining station, for example. The design will be "valid" but won't actually mine anything. Over time freighters will eventually empty it out completely.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 7:09:55 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Well depending on your location, some resources well not be nearby. I didn't feel like refitting the mining stations, infact there are plenty resources like 100k or more. So my constructors have better things to do than refitting mining stations, they were making outposts (gas mining) to expand my zones. Infact I already have over 50k on steels, gold, leads, etcs. and needed to focus on other resources that are low. I wouldn't mind having an options on station, like active or disactive, or mothballed.

If you having trouble getting resources to another planet (not station) that trying to build a station, you can construct couple re-supply ships to gather resources you need and retire there. Do the math and write down what you need and don't forget the re-supply ship will be scrap down too. These can be problems in forward areas when needed ASAP. Low population will take awhile to build those stations or bases. Many players usually don't protect them with their navies til it is too late.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 8:44:13 AM   
feygan

 

Posts: 323
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		Sadly with the still broken freight AI I still use small ships. Since freighters only really spend tow moments in "normal" space, that being when they are docking and undocking. I have found the best design to be tiny cargo holds, and then try to ensure they move very fast at sublight speeds. This way they arrive at a docking bay before anything can get more than a couple of shots off at them, combine that with just enough shielding to handle one or two hits and they generally avoid any possible damage. The only real thing to change is fuel, this tends to depend on how your economy is set up. If you are still struggling with mineral sources of your own you will have to have larger fuel bays to allow for trade runs to territory beyond your boarders, otherwise keep it as small as possible.

All of this results in a ship that tends to be one of the fastest designs you have, which means few things can catch it (including any of your military designs stolen by pirates). In addition the small size of the ship keeps the cost down and means it is built very quickly with few resources, again useful if for any reason you do suddenly loose lots to attacks your economy doesn't stall while rebuilding.

Sadly though it is a bad design ethos and one that I feel forced to use due to the freight AI. My freighter designs tend to look a lot like a deliberate exploit, whereas they are actually just a patch on a broken game mechanic.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 6:23:01 PM   
twinkypillow

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		agree.. the issue is coding and matrix appears to be finished with any re-working of the code.. it's time to stop wasting time and just make distant worlds 2 with the correct freighter/private sector working..

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Post #: 15
RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 7:16:00 PM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		I would be interesting if they would start working on part two, would be nice in 3D, but that just another story.

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RE: Freighters! - 12/31/2014 7:48:19 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

I would be interesting if they would start working on part two, would be nice in 3D, but that just another story.


I'm hoping we get at least one more pass on DW:U myself. DW:2 is going to be a long ways off. Games take time to develop, no doubt.

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RE: Freighters! - 1/1/2015 7:20:22 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

I would be interesting if they would start working on part two, would be nice in 3D, but that just another story.


I'm hoping we get at least one more pass on DW:U myself. DW:2 is going to be a long ways off. Games take time to develop, no doubt.


I agreed it does take time, but it depend on size of group that are working on the projects and their skills.

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RE: Freighters! - 1/1/2015 7:54:56 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		OK, initial testing results are as follows:

1. No effect on the actual amount of cargo carried, tiny loads are still being carried somtimes. This is not surprising, as it is part of the code.

2. However, more ships are carrying full loads, and the freighters are seeing far less down time.

3. Overall, I'm seeing more cargo being moved since the less time is taken loading and unloading. This seems to be the biggest benefit, the load times decreasing.

4. Another effect I'm seeing is less of my mining ships just sitting around doing nothing. Early in the game at least the miners are staying very busy.

I think this will work out fine, especially if you increase the number of mining engines and cargo bays on the mines. I suggest what previous studies have shown having 3 x luxury on every mining station, with 2 x gas extractor or 3 x mining engine depending on which station type it is. Also, increasing the cargo bays to around 20 to 30 per station as well as additional docking bays (I'm using 12).

Also, without the huge number of bays on the freighters, they are getting their full hyperspace speed, since the ships are able to have multiple reactors.

Ironically, this seems to have made the cargo system more efficient, though mileage may vary and I have not done anything but preliminary testing.

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RE: Freighters! - 1/1/2015 9:34:10 PM   
twinkypillow

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		shark7, what the heck was your test?

you put freighters with 1 cargo bay?? mining stations with tons of cargo bays?? or what?

i'm thinking about putting all freighters - (small,medium,large) but ALL with only 1 cargo bay.. then seeing what they do..


I don't care how many cargo bays or docking bays on the actual mining station.. 4-6 is plenty for both docking and cargo bays- unless you are trying to refuel some fleets.. i was just thinkin how can i get caslon/hydrogen faster to my ports!!




< Message edited by pumkinfacer22 -- 1/1/2015 10:35:24 PM >

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RE: Freighters! - 1/1/2015 9:54:09 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Test:

Default vs Modded:

The modifications are as follows:

Small freighter: 1 cargo bay, 4 engines
Medium Freighter: 2 cargo bays, 5 engines
Large freighter: 3 cargo bays, 6 engines
Gas mining stations: 2 gas extractor, 3 luxury extractor, 20 cargo bay, 12 docks
Mining stations: 3 mining engine, 3 luxury extractor, 20 cargo bay, 12 docks
Gas Mining Ship: 2 gas extractor, 2 luxury, 4 cargo bay
Mining Ship: 2 mining engine, 2 luxury, 4 cargo bay

I would be willing to zip my templates up and attach them to this thread, IF I can get it to work, which hasn't happened lately.

They are quite simple designs, and could just be copy pasted into every design template folder (I've already done this to study the effects on the AI as best I can).

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RE: Freighters! - 1/2/2015 11:15:41 PM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline 		Do the design template files get re-loaded on game start or savegame re-load, or do we need to start a new game for the template changes to be seen in-game?

Edit: Obviously, I'm referring mostly to AI ship designs.

< Message edited by Bebop Cola -- 1/3/2015 12:20:27 AM >

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RE: Freighters! - 1/3/2015 3:16:54 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bebop Cola

Do the design template files get re-loaded on game start or savegame re-load, or do we need to start a new game for the template changes to be seen in-game?

Edit: Obviously, I'm referring mostly to AI ship designs.


From what I can tell, no. You'd have to start a new game for the templates to go into effect.

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Post #: 23
RE: Freighters! - 1/6/2015 3:48:36 AM   
twinkypillow

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		well finally got my freighters to do this atleast...

i noticed with my current designs of the freighters:

small - grab 500/1000 of resources.

medium - grab 1000/2000

large - grab 2000/3000


so you have to put enough cargo bays for that.. thats what mine seem to be doing..




Attachment (1)

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RE: Freighters! - 1/6/2015 3:54:20 AM   
twinkypillow

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		here is the real photo..

NOW, all my freighters are not doing this.. i just noticed some.. of course.. i still find large freighters taking 500.. etc..







Attachment (1)

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RE: Freighters! - 1/6/2015 10:24:04 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Well having played games with default designs and modded designs, I have come to a conclusion.

Freighters aren't the biggest problem, but having mining stations that are not designed optimally are.

Although I have found I do like the smaller faster freighters for the simple reason that they end up moving cargo more efficiently time-wise.

Overall, I think it best that you get the most efficient mining station designs.

Gas Mining Station suggestions:

3 luxury mining engine
2 Gas extractor
20 (minimum) cargo bays
12 docking components

Mining Station suggestions:

3 Luxury mining engine
3 Mining engine
20 (minimum) cargo bays
12 docking component

Using those designs I have seen far, far less resource shortages. The freighters didn't seem to matter as much, but the smaller ones did move the resources around faster due to the speed of the ships. I think on freighters it is more important to get full hyperspace speed out of them than to worry about max cargo capacity.

At any rate, I am happy with the set up I am currently using, and plan to leave it be.

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RE: Freighters! - 1/6/2015 10:49:32 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pumkinfacer22

i have yet to figure out freighter algorithms .. and the developer hasn't even figured it out either..

so when my pirate homebase spaceport was abandoned and i built a new home base space port in another system, all my 60 freighters barely moved to fill up my other new "home" base space port..

i think they just started to now though..


so, how does one transfer the original old large space port supplies to a new system? i abandoned the old large space port becuase it got over-run with enemies etc.. so now i have to start fresh with a new large space port on a gas planet and waiting for my 60+ freighters to fill it.. but alas.. they sit around the original large abandoned space port with 100,000 of caslon and silicon..etc.. ah the joy..

There's a distance limit between spaceports I believe you have to stay within to get them to transport goods from one to another. I forget the distance but I think it's like 700 something. If you're over that limit then the supplies in that one port will usually remain there. If you are within the limit they they should transfer.

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Post #: 27
RE: Freighters! - 1/7/2015 12:42:57 AM   
Deomrve

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		Shark I'm curious, why do you put Luxury mining engines on Gas Mining Stations? I don't recall any Luxury Resources on Gas Planets. I could be wrong and would like to know what Luxury Resources there are on Gas Planets.

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Post #: 28
RE: Freighters! - 1/7/2015 1:14:09 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deomrve

Shark I'm curious, why do you put Luxury mining engines on Gas Mining Stations? I don't recall any Luxury Resources on Gas Planets. I could be wrong and would like to know what Luxury Resources there are on Gas Planets.


The resources on ice planets are luxury and gas, so you need both to extract them. If you look at the default designs, you will notice that both types of mines have luxury extractors on them.

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RE: Freighters! - 1/13/2015 12:20:04 PM   
tmski

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/7/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Pretty sure we have no control over whether or not a mining station will mine.

There is a trick (which I am not a fan of) to use military ships with cargo bays and mining engines to give you control over mining (you can order the ship to mine a planet). As I said, it works, I have done it myself, but it is a monster of micro-management, and not really keeping in the spirit of the game (just IMO).

Once I get done modding my ship templates and seeing how the AI handles having more efficient mining stations (more cargo bays and 3 x luxury with 3 x mining or 2 x gas extractor) and smaller cargo ships, I'll report some findings. Bear in mind, I do not work quickly, so it could be quite some time before I get there.


I am very curious as to how the trick actually works.
Which military ship do you use?
How do you order ship to mine resources on planet?
How do you order the ship to unload cargo at planet or space station?

Thanks

(in reply to Shark7)
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