Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's.

I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains.

This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south.

I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks.

Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth.

The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically.

Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's.

I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains.

This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south.

I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks.

Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth.

The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically.

Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion.

In your attempt to defend the air and logistical systems of WITW, you inadvertently show their weaknesses.

First, I posit that if the Wehrmacht had 3 to 6 Panzer divisions loaded on trains somewhere in France on June 6th, there would not have been enough rolling stock to keep everything in supply. Furthermore, these would have been easy targets as they began to move. And, have you ever been involved in loading and unloading heavy equipment (tanks, assault guns, half tracks) off of rail cars? It takes more than a day to unload a division, even if one has a large unloading facility to do so. Those were bombed out of existence in the war. Can't do that in the game. No, in the game one can rail right up to the front and Bam! unload, even if there is no rail head and it's just in the middle of nowhere, and attack several times at full strength. Uh, huh. Sure, interdiction MAY have an impact, but I would argue that a few trains unloading several divisions that close would receive quite a bit of attention, if it were possible. No provision for that in the game, either.

Second, please tell me which 4 months the 8th Air Force did not bomb Germany. I have included a listing of their missions for your convenience. Sure, the emphasis was on supporting the invasion preparation, but strategic bombing never did cease. Oh, and please tell me how I can have he 15th Air Force help with an invasion in Northern France. Should I move all the planes to France to help? Did the WA have to do that in real life, or did they continue the strategic campaign?

Third, please tell me which bombing option breaks rail lines altogether. Interdiction/railway bombing only lasts the current turn, and bombing marshaling yards in cities is almost useless since they can be easily circumvented by taking alternate rail lines. If the WA could bomb a rail line and have it broken for a few turns, then I'd agree with your "bomb the railways" comment. I've not found the options available to be nearly as effective as you say.

The point is that the air system is not "perfect." It is flawed. Some of that is because converting reality into electronic bytes always comes with compromises, but, part of it is that there is a bit of "play balance" that has been considered. If there were no interior bombing, what would be the effect on victory points, for example? The air system is what it is because of other game mechanics, including the movement/combat system.

I agree that a more robust air campaign can help the WA, but the fact is that the Wehrmacht can just get too many assets too involved in combat in the first week. That's a fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

You probably talk about "rules" in HvH. But in a game against an Axis AI ? As Joel stated, the AI cheats and I'd like to know how far it goes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

This is rail way interdiction. On some hits I'm showing +80,000SMP added to a rail hex. Put enough bombers on a few rail choke points and it won't matter if units rail around Europe and they won't be getting too much supply either. In this screen shot his defense was daunting, but with a little prep work behind his lines, having 8th AF set to bomb a two hex area of just his troops (3 separate grnd attacks), I broke his lines that turn. I killed almost a divisions worth of men on ground attacks, but after your break them any more ground attacks should focus on starving him so he cannot regain lost fatigue, or supplies. 2000+bombers in a 20 miles area is a lot of bombs, and this isn't counting my tactical air this was just my heavy bombers.

Use the map, check out how much rail the lines saw. If your recon is good, they can be accurate, and if you see a crap ton of rail use on that line, shut it down for him. You bomb it in a small area and you can slow it to a trickle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

TY! There's actually a magic number I've found that helps with making a successful invasion, depending on how many amphipbs your using. If your all bunched up that plays into the defenders hands. I like to open my invasions up and make you spread your forces to contain me, but hopefully not enough to seriously threaten a beachhead. The key is to find the magic number that allows your beaches to support one another, yet keep the defenders spread out enough so they cannot launch a good attack. The other thing is paratroopers. They are good at being elite speed bumps, so put them where they can slow his response to the beaches. Pick where you land carefully.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

9 Divisions in a thirty mile deep defensive belt on a 120 mile front is fiction. Like I said if you were playing War in the West 1916 fair enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Frontages in Normandy were tight but they certainly were not deep. How many German divisions or equivalent fought in Normandy, 25? Thats including Cherbourg btw. By the time of Goodwood some of those divisions were no bigger than a Regiment like the 21st like 12SS others had ceased to exist. German divisions could according to the Commander of transport Hoeffner move only one third their normal rate due to interdiction, Rundstedt claimed their was little point sending sending full strength divisions to Normandy as he could not supply the ones he had. As for responding to the invaision PZ Lehr lost 10% of its trucks and over 10% of its non tank tracked vechiles trying to do just that in daylight. Then I laugh at the keeping divisions on trains, not only is it gamey its totally absurd given that Germany had a chronic shortage of rolling stock (Adam Tooze Wages of Destruction) It simply could not afford to have one wagon left idle. Like I said if you want World War I you have got it if you want WWII you need to start thinking what the Allies and the Axis were actually capable off whether logistically or in the face of airpower.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

THAT'S ME! And it's not an unwillingness to work, it called "conservation of energy" when your older ;).