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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:54:02 AM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		I don't have near that much fat to burn!!! I'm a lean, mean, mouse clicking machine!

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:58:13 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I don't have near that much fat to burn!!! I'm a lean, mean, mouse clicking machine!




hes got ALLOT of fat to burn aka potential energy






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< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/13/2015 2:59:46 AM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:00:24 AM   
marion61

 

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Status: offline 		Don't cook another invasion while your main show is going on. It's taken me way longer to break out than it should have because of the lack of troops ships to transport them across. I've had 50pts a turn to use for troops and that is two divisions or 1 hq, or 1 armor division. I've taken some horrible air losses the past two turns, but this turn I'm almost out and I've flanked his line at Paris. I also watched his cv's drop while the 8th AF did a carpet bombing in calais. I do love the smell of dead German's in the morning! Opps, wrong movie!




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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 8:01:05 AM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		The game is either going to be rational or its not. If its not good luck selling it. The average customer when he finds an exploit in the rules, against the AI or player works to close it not defend it. Only a special type of person does that. They even invent history like not bombimg Germany for four months or spare railway capacity just lying around to excuse it as skill. I play competitive sport so I understand why *rules* were invented and understand the work needed to become proficent because in my sport its all about skill. You want the game to be World War One, good luck. You want to be the best player of a few that have purchased the game even more good luck, you want to be the best of the remaining people that play the game, I wish you all the luck in the world because off course thats skillful (sic)



< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/13/2015 9:28:07 AM >

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Post #: 64
RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 8:40:04 AM   
LiquidSky


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This is just so wrong on so many levels.

The game is either going to be rational or its not. A couple friends of mine are statistics majors..we like to joke with them that everything is 50-50. It either happens or it doesn't.

...good luck selling it Lots of things in life are bought despite rationality. Alcohol. Tobacco. Drugs. Wargames.

...average customer...finds an exploit... Average people don't find exploits. They read and bitch about them in forums.

..sport is all about skill No. Its all about winning. Which is why you see perfectly healthy athletic men writhing like little children on the field when an opposing player brushes up against them. Whining seems to be the hallmark of competitive athletes.

You seem to go on and on about this being a WWI game. Well, I have news for you sonny. The battle for Normandy and the battle for Italy were not battles of maneuver. They were battles of attrition. Guess what. So was WWI. So there are going to be similarities. But I bet if you spend some of your competitive energy playing the game, you might find one or two differences.



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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 8:58:43 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		This thread is sailing very close to the wind and I'd hate to have to lock it.

If you are going to criticise either the game or another player then please no insults and be constructive.



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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 9:11:41 AM   
paullus99


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Status: offline 		There is criticism & then there is "constructive criticism."

Legitimate gripes and proposed solutions or at least a rational discussion is one thing, crapping all over the game is something else entirely.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:07:32 PM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		The Strategic Air War Against Germany, 1939-1945: Report of the British Bombing Survey
Pages 114-117
1. Peak of the Germany rail system was from the summer 1943 until Bomber Command started the specific campaign against the rail system on March 6th 1944.
2. It took a full month before the effects were felt by Germany mid-May, because of extra rolling stock and normal wagon, locomotive production, repair crews and the over all size of the France rail system. ( more ways then one to get there from here.)
3. It took another 3 months to bring tonnage down to 20% of peak railed in Northern France before March 6th 1944.
4. A train could on average travel 500 miles in a single day. So moving a division that is sitting within 10 miles of a rail yard 200-300 miles in a week is completely historical before at least a 2-3 month long specific campaign against the rail system.
5. Historically the Allies simply did not have the resources to do this until January 1944.

Based on the data WitW (2by3) clearly is historically correct in their modelling of the rail system.
I think paullus99 says it best;
quote from paullus99
“WiTW appears to do a great job highlighting the difficulties and the absolutely need for planning and preparation for invasions - and more importantly, how to handle the aftermath as well. Preparation, preparation, preparation & more preparation seems to be the order of the day”

Link 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=qCeg7fyWGWIC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=german+rolling+stock+during+1943&source=bl&ots=fR8kGRaONQ&sig=yi0n3zUrpvc9PIuIdutYyMY83ps&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Fhi1VJPCNMi4ggTMhYGIDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=german%20rolling%20stock%20during%201943&f=false

Link 2
http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html


< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/13/2015 2:09:31 PM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:09:40 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

@ bjmorgan

I'm confused at your post as WitW does model both rail lines and rolling stock.  Railyards 'produce' the rolling stock so the more they are damaged the less can be loaded and the greater the congestion on the network (i.e. more SMPs to move the same distance).  The capability of a railyard effects the capacity of the co-located depot and this includes damage. As the freight movement is calculated last then less freight will be moved.  Finally unloading costs more the further you are from a railyard.

See One Page Guides # 11 & 12

Okay. Then what I see must be teleporting, that thing that some say doesn't exist.

I'm just about at the D-day turn of a new game. I'll post a couple of saves to show you what happens.

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Post #: 69
RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:35:15 PM   
RedLancer


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Status: offline 		Can we be quite clear in terms of terminology - teleporting is when a unit jumps out of a sealed pocket.  A unit moving to the frontline is a valid move.  Joel has also explained in post #22 what the AI is permitted to do.

Just to save everyone time and effort - if you want to prove your point we really need the pre-save so we can see what 'is' happening not a screenshot after the event. 

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 1:52:59 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		The German response?




usually directing the Germans, however iam Allies currently against AI.

did massive area prep to invade around Rome. then i landed a 4 beachhead invasion centered on the Achilles heel ...Foggia-Barlett-Bari. troop drop included. massive shift of air operations invasion week.

Ai tried to hold me with spread out regiments due to lack of units. ive cut across to Naples. germans who could not make it back to their forming line north of naples are isolated in the ports. entire panzer, pzg and herman goering divisions.

yet my daylight bombing is taking a beating. the worst ive ever had. unusual for me.

i had other invasions where the german response was quick and massive.

i hope that even when ive clicked all the right boxes, entered all the right numbers they interact with the rest of the "world" and that it can still be a bad week. if not then iam just filling out a form.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/13/2015 3:05:33 PM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:16:48 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		The DDAY transport plan did not start until DDAY-60 the Heavies were put under SHAEF command on April 14tjh even then they bombed Germany cites on consecutive nights until the 28th April. Harris was a master at circumventing higher authority you are confusing bombing directives that Harris paid lip service to in the strategic air war with the DDAY transport plan, two completely different things. What people are saying, the AXIS are reacting too quickly and in too many numbers to landings in good weather in the face of disruption and airpower. The reality was German divisions were on their wheels, hoofs and feet from Verdun to Normandy and only able to travel by night and at an exceptionally slow speed. Not one bridge was left over the Seine.

The quote from Field Grau is that a unit *on* a train could in theory travel 500 miles a day in 1941-42. That is not the same as digging up the trains and rolling stock because Germany did not have the spare capacity hanging around loading the unit and getting it to Normandy in June 44.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:27:21 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		@KWG what aircraft were suffering the most loss

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:35:26 PM   
RedLancer


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Status: offline 		That is correct but the response of the German's to the D-Day invasion was not just limited by interdiction and the effects of the Transport Plan on infrastructure.  There was also the impact of FORTITUDE for one.

In discussion of how a game plays out there is a need to balance the argument between what actually happened and what could have happened.  Things playing out ahistorically do not immediately indicate a problem with the game - there are players too  - who could either be doing things better or worse than our forefathers.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:46:25 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

@KWG what aircraft were suffering the most loss


My B17's. Ai is putting up massive fighter numbers. Lots of action over Hamburg.
I did get real high german air kills one week.


I have "snookered" the Luftwaffe. After hitting Hamburg area for 3 weeks i switched to 2 pinpoint targets on the way to Hamburg and got very little losses and good bombing results.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/13/2015 3:53:00 PM >

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Post #: 75
RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 2:57:53 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

The DDAY transport plan did not start until DDAY-60 the Heavies were put under SHAEF command on April 14tjh even then they bombed Germany cites on consecutive nights until the 28th April. Harris was a master at circumventing higher authority you are confusing bombing directives that Harris paid lip service to in the strategic air war with the DDAY transport plan, two completely different things. What people are saying, the AXIS are reacting too quickly and in too many numbers to landings in good weather in the face of disruption and airpower. The reality was German divisions were on their wheels, hoofs and feet from Verdun to Normandy and only able to travel by night and at an exceptionally slow speed. Not one bridge was left over the Seine.

The quote from Field Grau is that a unit *on* a train could in theory travel 500 miles a day in 1941-42. That is not the same as digging up the trains and rolling stock because Germany did not have the spare capacity hanging around loading the unit and getting it to Normandy in June 44.


I am not questioning mid-May 1944 to end of the war after weeks of bombing rail system.

I am saying based on historical data

1.The peak of rail tonnage and rail lines was mid 1943 until rail system bombing started in March 44.
2. Moving a division 200-300 miles in a week during that time was nothing special.

For reasons of security on June 8th 1941 7th Panzer Division was moved from Bonn to Lotzen which is 858 miles
and began the attack on Russia June 22nd 1941 at 3 am

So to be clear its nothing special for a Panzer division to load up on a train
and be transported 850 miles and be taking part in the largest offensive of WW II in 14 days or 2 full WitW turns.

It was not the only division to make the same move.

So moving 3 Panzer/Mech/MoT divisions over the rail system a few hundred miles and attacking the following turn is not exploiting anything.

The rail system had 2x the tonnage capacity of 1941.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Panzer_Division_(Wehrmacht)




< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/13/2015 4:03:17 PM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 3:06:49 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		I am always enthralled about Fortitude, sure it's important in the historical context because that is one of the great what ifs and I look forward to playing it once I build my new computer. But I want to be within the realms of the reality of the situation when I do. I think there is a certain luxury of both sides knowing the complete OOB when in reality only one had that knowledge through Ultra. Even Rommel after all even kept a reserve because he believed another landing was possible or if you believe what G von S and Guderian allude to because they were reliable Wehrmacht formations for a coup on 20th July. But then that gets into a command and control debate about Panzers and reserves. All your generals are yes men Rommel, Rundstedt, G Von S, Patton, Montgomery, Clark, Alexander never contradict each other, So you forces start to move in zero gravity.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 4:28:58 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		The rail system may have had X2 the capacity in 44 but its commitments were now times 100 of that of 1941. Just for a start Germany now had double the number of AFV's in June 44 than it did in June 41. It had two active theatres and was about to get a third. I also believe in your example Germany did *plan* Barbarrossa in peacable 1941 Europa, In 1944 we are talking about *reacting* in a slightly more hostile enviroment

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 4:53:55 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

The rail system may have had X2 the capacity in 44 but its commitments were now times 100 of that of 1941. Just for a start Germany now had double the number of AFV's in June 44 than it did in June 41. It had two active theatres and was about to get a third. I also believe in your example Germany did *plan* Barbarrossa in peacable 1941 Europa, In 1944 we are talking about *reacting* in a slightly more hostile enviroment


I agree with 44 after a player bombs rail system or 43 in Italy.

I am only talking having a Corp as a quick reaction force not armies like 41.

What is keeping the game fun for me is I really don't know how many invasions the WA's can do.

Bel did 3 from May-June 44. I like OKL used min force to contain each one, moving panzers to contain then bring up infantry to hold the line and pulling out what panzers I could.

Looking at all 7 games I have on going, all the allies rushed their landing before properly preparing.

They generally lacked air cover or spread out invasions so they could not link up or support each other.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/13/2015 5:54:36 PM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/13/2015 4:57:28 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

I look forward to playing it once I build my new computer.


what you building for a computer?

One good thing while you build it, you can watch us all make a bunch of mistakes you don't have to once you start playing


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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 4:20:39 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		All I can say is that if I'm putting 10,000 hours into something, it better be paying me a salary .

Players expect different things out of their game experience, even with a game as hardcore as WitW. Obviously against another human, the difficulty will be dependent upon the quality of your opponent, which is beyond anyone's control, that's a given.

We can disagree about whether certain mechanics work well from either a game-play or historical perspective. That's not bashing on the developers. I've written games, designed scenario's for computer wargames and proffesionaly developed applications for business. Putting your ego on the shelf kinda goes with that territory so I don't think the Dev's are going to be terribly wounded by people pointing out things that they think could work better. One of the things that I've learned from my time as a developer/designer is that all feedback is useful, even when the user is off-base because their impressions didn't come from nowhere.

I'm not going to get into a huge arguement about whether the mechanics should be working differently, I've offered my impressions on that for whatever they are worth.

What I will strongly suggest is that perhaps the easier levels of the A.I. are worth a second look. I'm really not sure the helper levels alone are cutting it. On something like "easy" or even "normal", I don't think a player would expect the A.I. not to be able to make some of the same strategic blunders that were made historicaly in terms of uncertainty, delays and confusion in response to an invasion...rather then astute, massive and rapid response being the routine.

What really matters (IMO) for games against an A.I. opponent is to be able to match the players expectation of the level of difficulty against how the A.I. actually performs and the level of difficulty advertised with the setting. It wouldn't matter if a game had a litteral "I win" button in the interface against an A.I. opponent as long as the difficulty level setting advertised produced an expectation of that (e.g. it said "Player Wins"). When dealing with solo play, the only person impacted is the user of the product playing solo. It's actually a good thing for an application to be able to accomodate as many users expectations as practical as long as it doesn't impact the applications core intended audience.

With changing core game mechanics that obviously impacts every player. With putting in different A.I. options and levels, that only impacts directly the players selecting those options. The only impact to others would be the resources used to do that.... which obviously the Developers have to judge the various levels of demand and the product that they want to produce.

I would at least offer the suggestion that several players have indicated that the A.I. may be performing too effective a job in it's response at levels lower then "challenging".



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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 6:06:45 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

I would at least offer the suggestion that several players have indicated that the A.I.
may be performing too effective a job in it's response at levels lower then "challenging".





That might be true.

I played WitE allot and know the ground game about as good as it can be mastered.

I think right now the issue is people new to WitW playing allies can generally "master" the air game because the WA's simply over power Germany an its impossible to screw that side of things up and its seems "easy" or "normal".

The ground war is another story and requires at least average knowledge/"mastery" or it seems like the AI is uber over powered. When you compare that to air war, yup I feel same way being new to game system.

Just because the hex has 3 divisions and CV say 60- x values does not mean that's the value because of FoW.

the combat system rewards the side attacking.

You have to have the right units, leaders, SU's ect ect and you can drop those X cv hexes with out to much trouble.

I have had someone invade Italy with 15+ divisions and he had control of the air generally as he was far more skilled then me in the air game,
but I drove him into the sea with just 6 panzer divisions.

And believe it or not I simply don't don't think they understand the logistics system. I thougt I would hate it, but now that I understand how to manipulate it I really love it.

I think right now people need to master the ground system more. I have 7 games on going and only 1 of the other players ( WitE vet ) is giving me any trouble on the ground.

I see allot of threads be moaning stuff and most is ground war issue's an I think its simply because of a lack of understanding of the ground engine. This is based on my exp playing a WitE vet and others who are new - its truly night and day.






< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/14/2015 7:09:42 PM >

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 6:52:39 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I think right now people need to master the ground system more. I have 7 games on going and only 1 of the other players ( WitE vet ) is giving me any trouble on the ground.

I see allot of threads be moaning stuff and most is ground war issue's an I think its simply because of a lack of understanding of the ground engine. This is based on my exp playing a WitE vet and others who are new - its truly night and day.


Any hints on where to start reading? Are there any guides or good threads somewhere?
-How to use the SUs? Where to put them? Corps? Army? Divisions? What goes where?
-Leaders? What to look for? Who to place where? Etc etc...


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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 6:54:53 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		I think your missing the point of people's "moaning", it seems they arnt convinced with what they are experiencing in relation to certain aspects of the game.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 7:07:05 PM   
tevans6220

 

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Status: offline 		Guys I think maybe part of the problem with interdiction in the D Day scenarios and possibly others is that there is no ground interdiction until the player orders his air forces to do it. Naval interdiction shows but no ground. Weren't the Allies interdicting and bombing France well before D Day in preparation for the landings? None of that is reflected at the start of the scenario.

It's easy to see what I'm talking about. Turn off FOW and start the D Day scenario. There is damage to some ports and railyards but no ground interdiction. Run a turn and see naval interdiction show but still no ground. Somehow I think that if that were taken into account at scenario start you wouldn't see half the German Army responding to an invasion. Anybody invading on or near the historical dates isn't going to cause enough interdiction to slow the enemy down.

Not really well versed in the editor right now but somebody could test this by giving all of France an interdiction level of 7, 8 or 9 at scenario start and then see what happens. Seems to me the interdiction (railyards, bridges, roads) took place weeks and months before the actual invasion. That's not reflected when you start the D Day scenarios. The only scenarios that the player should actually have a major effect on interdiction is the grand campaigns. The shorter scenarios should already reflect interdiction prior to the scenario starting. Unless I'm missing something, which is possible, it doesn't seem to show any.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 7:11:14 PM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Not really well versed in the editor right now but somebody could test this by giving all of France an interdiction level of 7, 8 or 9 at scenario start and then see what happens. Seems to me the interdiction (railyards, bridges, roads) took place weeks and months before the actual invasion. That's not reflected when you start the D Day scenarios. The only scenarios that the player should actually have a major effect on interdiction is the grand campaigns. The shorter scenarios should already reflect interdiction prior to the scenario starting. Unless I'm missing something, which is possible, it doesn't seem to show any.


You can't set interdiction in the Editor although you can set the first turn ADs that generate interdiction. Naval Patrols are different as they can happen automatically.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 7:24:50 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		Interdiction does not last from turn to turn. What does last is damage to railyards, ports and other factories, as well as damage to depots (i.e. what is started in the depot vs what could be there if there had been no interdiction). In the D-day campaign the railyards and ports start heavily damaged and the depots have a lot in them.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 10:33:43 PM   
marion61

 

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Status: offline 		http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3778468 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3783691 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3783270. These are very helpful.

As for su's, it is dependent on what your wanting them to accomplish. I assign every division I can, most experienced first, with a Tank Bat., Tank Destroyer Bat., and an Engineer support unit. This way I make sure I have armor and engineers in battles instead of depending on two admin. checks to see if they are sent to fight. Artillery and ranged su's, I normally keep in Corps and Army HQ. More so Corps HQ because they are the main support for the divisions. Also have some construction units in the Corps and Army HQ's so that if your in an isolated area, like an island, you can get the priority work done more efficiently. That's my rule of thumb, but sometimes you make do with what you have. Tank su's are good for offense, tank destroyer and engineers help with defense and reducing forts.

As for leaders, you want your best ground and mech. leaders in your Corps HQ's. They direct the battles for the divisions under them, and try not to let them have a bad admin. rating. Your higher admin. leaders you may want to put into your higher level commands. This helps with admin. checks that go up the line, and a good admin. at Army level and above helps get bullets and beans to the front.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 88
RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 10:39:46 PM   
tevans6220

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe it should. Maybe ground interdiction should be cumulative to reflect damage done to the road network and bridges prior to the start of the scenario. If I'm well supplied and don't use the rail network and ports, I can move pretty easily because interdicting for one turn isn't strong enough to slow me down. That's why I suggested being able to set it in the editor.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 89
RE: Amazed at the german invasion response - 1/14/2015 10:43:34 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The system doesn't allow that as interdiction is zeroed out at the beginning of each air resolution phase.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to tevans6220)
Post #: 90
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