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RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how 12 AAA pieces are losing me China

 
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RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/12/2015 8:30:25 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		BTW, you can observe the same trend in other bases in the Guadalcanal scenario.

Buna starts with 4500 supplies, has a few DP guns. Drops to 3900 supplies on turn 2, after one air attack. No hits on the supplies.

Lae starts with 2100 supplies and has several dozen DP guns. Drops to 1780 supplies on turn 2, after one air attack. No hits on the supplies.

In WITP:AE, 1 device needs 1 supply point per month when idle. If one DP guns uses 50 supplies per day when shooting at bombers and does it every day, then it consumes 1500 supplies per month. That is 15,000% more! Seppuku for quatermasters, now!

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/12/2015 9:31:24 AM >

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Post #: 61
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/12/2015 12:05:12 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Your conclusions are wrong and you did not notice because of your lack of negative tests.

Did you attempt to verify your theoretical vanilla supply consumption before jumping conclusions?
Did you calculate supply consumption by adding up base supply plus intrinsic unit supply?

Take your Buna test as an example:
Every single unit located @ Buna starts with 0 intrinsic supply. The supply drop you attribute to the air attack is in reality caused by every single unit in that hex attemting to max out its´ intrinsic supply.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 4/12/2015 1:05:50 PM >

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Post #: 62
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/13/2015 1:31:19 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		I've read this thread when it first started and I'll not reread it here now, but this is my take from what I recall. Units in combat are units in combat and they use supply, not just the AAA guns the whole unit. That's how its 'coded' and that's that. So the supply usage is for the whole unit when engaged. The game doesn't count individual bullets. Remember its a GAME and many things are abstracted. Its the nature of the beast.

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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 63
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/13/2015 8:36:55 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I've read this thread when it first started and I'll not reread it here now, but this is my take from what I recall. Units in combat are units in combat and they use supply, not just the AAA guns the whole unit. That's how its 'coded' and that's that. So the supply usage is for the whole unit when engaged. The game doesn't count individual bullets. Remember its a GAME and many things are abstracted. Its the nature of the beast.


+1

The only thing I'd add though is that it's still a bit of a mystery what is actually going on. Maybe that's intended. Maybe that is okay.

My questions/comments are:

1. Can anyone actually break down and account for OP's AA unit's use of supply on the turn in question? (this might need more info in terms of recon overflies, etc)

2. Is the supply usage of a comparable arty unit firing on the ground at an enemy bombardment comparable? Or do the multiple air strikes, recon overflies (maybe sweeps?) account for a much higher use of supply than an arty unit on the ground would use?

3. Is the number of planes in a strike taken into account for the amount of supply used per strike? For example, would all guns open up for the same duration no matter what the strike size or mission? (seems easy to exploit, not that I'm interested, by splitting air groups and running a bunch of tiny strikes in if every AA gun unit fires the same amount at every target in range attacking ground, airfield, recon, port, city, etc)

4. As AA/arty units are run out of supply, are they then subject to 'unit isolated without supply' and resulting disablement of devices mid-turn as Greyjoy pointed out, and which Alfred confirmed might be a problem in the following thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3717174&mpage=1&key=isolated%2Cwithout%2Csupply�


< Message edited by obvert -- 4/13/2015 2:38:27 PM >

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 64
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/13/2015 2:36:46 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		LoBaron is right. I haven’t noticed the fact that several units start with 0 supplies in the Guadalcanal scenario thus my tests were faulty. I did another test below.

Lunga: 1000 supplies

FOW off, no construction, all Jap bases set to stockpile.

Units in Lunga need 350 = 350 / 30 days= units use 11 sup per day

2 x SNLF, 2 x const regt

The SNLF have 6 DP guns

SNLFs set to Combat, Const regts set to Rest

Supply in the units at start
0,158,0,0

Test 1

One attack at 15,000 feet - 8 x B-17s. Hits: 1 airbase, 2 runway

Supplies on turn 2 in Lunga: 719 supplies

Supply in units on turn 2:
73,176,84,84

Units took 259 supplies +10 sup per day = 269 taken and used by units

1000 – 719 = 281

269 supplies used by units

12 supplies used by DP guns

Test 2:

Two attacks

8 x B-17 forts, runway 2

9 x B-17 forts, airbase 1, runway 7, supply hits 3 (159 supplies destroyed)

Supplies left on turn 2 in Lunga: 534 supplies

Supplies in unit
73,202,83,84

Total 288 + 10 per day = 298 supplies

298 supplies + 159 destroyed = 457 supplies

1000 - 457 supplies = 543 supplies

9 supplies used by AA (but there were two separate air attacks)


So it seems 6 DP guns used 9-10 supplies on both days, even though in test 2 there were two separate air attacks. No Allied recon flights over Lunga.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/13/2015 3:49:39 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 65
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/13/2015 3:39:49 PM   
Yakface


Posts: 846
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Those supply usage figures would be perfectly reasonable.

The 'problem' seems only to rear it's head when recon is involved - multiple recon flights seem to chew through vast quantities of supplies - see Tiejman's testing and posts #55 above

< Message edited by Yakface -- 4/13/2015 4:40:50 PM >

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 66
RE: For God's sake, somebody spike those guns - or how ... - 4/15/2015 2:46:49 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I took a look at 17th Base Force which starts in Changsha, China.

Between 8 December and 19 December, 1941, the unit constantly needed between 195-286 supplies. All other BFs in China needed on average 120-150 supplies (full TOE). Also, the 10th Corps which sits in Changsha and has 0 AA devices needed 665-676 supplies (took some replacements). The corps has 880 devices , of which 415 devices are disabled, so his supply need should be around 690 supplies. The BF has 205 devices, of which 175 are ready, thus it should use at most 190 supplies ( 30 disabled devices consume roughly 0.5 supply point). The BF sports 8 x 75mm AA and 8 x 40mm AA.

I checked operational reports for the period of 8-19 December, 1941. On each day there was at least one Japanese aircraft flying recon over Changsha. Only on turn 5 and 6 there were no flights over Changsha. This is when the BF consumption reached the low point of 195 supplies, which roughly corresponds to the need of its TOE.

Stuff the Chinese bases with AA guns at your own peril.

(in reply to Yakface)
Post #: 67
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