warspite1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Centuur
quote:
ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Centuur
The USSR did take 230.000 Polish soldiers prisoner of war during the occupation of the area. That's far more than two divisions. Two corps is more likely. Furthermore, the Poles did fight the Soviets. Somewhere around 7.000 soldiers were killed by the Soviet forces during the occupation of Eastern Poland. There was some heavy fighting around the area too. Soviet losses are not given, but they attacked with an overwhelming force, not just the one division or corps which is often used to claim the area in WiF.
Such an attack is of course very difficult to recreate in WiF. I've always wondered why the Poles don't have the forces available on the board as they had if you investigate the number of soldiers the Poles really had and place it next to the counters they have in WiF. They are at least two corps sized units short... That was because of the defenses in the East. The Poles knew that they would not only had to fight the Germans, but that the Russians were going to attack too...
On this map, you will see that at least 10 Polish division were deployed in Eastern Poland
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Rzeczpospolita_1939_Polish_divisions.png
warspite1
That is not correct. Look more closely at the units - they are KOP and they were NOT division strength. Happy to give details of these units if interested.
Just as one example the map shows in the east the 39th Division. This was not a fully formed division.
Than explain to me why the Soviets killed 7.000 Polish soldiers and took 230.000 PoW's while overrunning Eastern Poland? How can 20.000 men kill almost 1.000 Soviet soldiers out of an attacking force of over a million man? That's impossible too. 7.000 Polish soldiers killed out of 20.000? Strange number, isn't it?
I know the KOP were the border guards and were numbered only 20.000. But I simply don't believe that those were the only forces the USSR encountered. You can't take 230.000 PoW's during the campaign if you have only 20.000 enemy soldiers opposing you...
On the Soviet attack on Eastern Poland there is so few information available (it is probably buried somewhere in closed archives in Moscow, due to the war crimes committed by the Soviets during this campaign, I believe).
Fact is that if you simply total the number of Polish troops available and you put that back into the number of corps you should get in Poland at the moment of the DoW in WiF, you still are a couple of corps short. That is even when you take into account the MIL arriving in the next turn if Poland survives the first turn...
warspite1
1. Remember we are only interested in September 1st 1939. How do the Polish set-up? Your House Rule suggested some Polish units need to be placed in the east to mirror historical set up. Everything that happens thereafter – and certainly from the 17th - is totally irrelevant to this. i.e. how the Poles react to the Soviet stab in the back, how the war progresses etc.
2. The Polish historical set-up was designed to hold the Germans - where they knew the attack was coming from. That is where the Polish army was placed - in the west.
3. I do not know where that map comes from but according to the OOB’s I have seen, the 39th and 11th Division were forming on the 1st September, the only 5th Division I can find was far to the west, in Wloclawek (near Lodz) while the 12th was between Warsaw and Krakow.
4. The Polish defences in the east were the responsibility of the KOP. These were regiment size and even if added together, they still would not make a proper division / corps as the AA, AT and other specialist units that divisions and corps contain were not available. I think 20,000 seems a high number but may be right day 1. Certainly some of these forces were stripped to the west to shore up positions.
5. As to the question of how 7,000 out of circa.20,000 troops could have been killed. It's not strange at all. You were right - the KOP were not the only Polish forces encountered, but then miss the point - it is not 7,000 out of 20,000. The Polish units in the west were pushed back to the east by the Germans between September the 1st and the 17th. There was much fighting in the south-east between the Poles and the Soviets particularly around Lvov where there was a “plan” to try and hold out in the extreme south-east on the Romanian border, and where Polish units were being pushed back anyway by German units from Slovakia. This is in addition to fighting by the KOP who, in many cases disobeyed orders not to fight the Soviets!
6. The total number killed and taken prisoner has nothing to do with day one strength of the eastern defences, and is more to do with what happened during the campaign and particularly post the 17th and the heavy fighting in the southeast.
7. Finally as to how accurate the OOB’s are – well this is World In Flames and not WITE! How the hell does Belgium have a naval counter? 
< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/25/2015 6:41:59 PM >
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