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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans?

 
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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 2/26/2015 6:03:27 AM   
Smirfy

 

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As usual Grumpy Mel puts it very well, Ive been in Vienna in 1944 and still had not overtaken the Axis score so I just ignore the VP score because its tied to the great broken/WAD transport cull. The Axis get generic OOB strengths which is a huge advantage over historical to add to their reaction times. Ungraduated attack and defence is a glaring ommision for a game of this scale and scope.


(in reply to Usili)
Post #: 61
RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 2/26/2015 8:11:52 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

You believe I´m wrong and I´m convinced I´m right.


There I do disagree. One of my favourite observations is the story of the lost tourist who stops and asks for directions from a local farmer (insert comedic country/city as appropriate) the answer he gets is 'Well to begin with you don't start from here.'

It's not a question of right and wrong but what is feasible and worthwhile. You want the VPs changed and the basis of your arguments for doing so are well made. Should changes be made then you enter the realm of whether the changes are possible, worthwhile or in the long run better. There are a big handful of changes I'd like made to the game too but I've learned to accept the judgement of Joel - there is a spectrum that runs from broken to improvement to works fine but irks - noting that the provision of evidence and sound argument is well received and can sway the argument.

Finally you know that question of what superhero you'd choose to be - I've always said Hindsight Man.



Lets agree to disagree on certain aspects of game design then?

As I said I have long ago given up on having the VP system changed. I realize its too late for that. But I do hope the system will be looked at for future products.

Judging by Joels answer there is still hope for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


Joel, thank you very much for taking the time to answer the questions I had!

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 2/26/2015 9:12:57 AM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 62
RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/2/2015 6:07:11 PM   
geozero


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IMO the main problem with these games is that we already know history, we know how the war was fought was errors were made, where invasions will be conducted, etc. To simply play the game historically means that the German/Axis side will ultimately be defeated. This is not the case on squad level or tactical games where a small battle or engagement can have different outcomes. But a strategic level game is quite different.

The alternatives is to balance so that each side is more or less equal, but that makes it ahistorical and true grognards will complain about that. Must we invade in Sicily? In Normandy? In 1944? Certainly not, but there needs to be room to model alternatives to what really happened. Being able to bring troops and aircraft from the Eastern front in 1943 takes away from the overall strategic level of the game... almost feels like a cheat. Then could the U.S. bring forces from the Pacific and ignore that conflict against the Japanese?

There are other games which try different ways to provide a "sandbox" and thus allow each player to win or lose more on their individual decisions rather than some historical (though accurate recreation) events. Hearts of Iron series (and the soon to be released v.4), Making History 2, and even Supreme Ruler 1936 all attempt to provide the sandbox settings of the strategic level warfare and allow the players decisions to challenge them and change the course of history.

I will probably get flamed for saying this... but, IMO allowing the players decisions to really change the course of the war is paramount and I think that the other aforementioned games provide that setting much better... and for a lot less money.

I don't own this game but reading through forums, watching videos, etc. it appears to me that the developers did a fine job at recreating the GROUND combat aspects of the theater of war but did not do as well in the AIR, NAVAL, and INDUSTRY sections... It's tough to play a strategic level game where you come into play in 1943-45... by this time the war has pretty much been already decided (unless you provide extreme balances) in terms of manpower, air power, naval and supply/industry. The Soviets are pushing very hard from the East, and this is not modeled as best as it could have been. Well, you just can't unless you link WEST and EAST theaters in one giant massive game (which I understand is the goal down the road at another $100+ a pop).

Manufacturing, design and tooling all take time... starting in 1943 locks you in to what ever the developers setup... and if historical... does not look good for the Germans. Perhaps these are the balance issues that the OP documented and did not like... they have to be there in order to allow the German player a chance to succeed within the confines of the game.

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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/2/2015 8:34:07 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

It's tough to play a strategic level game where you come into play in 1943-45... by this time the war has pretty much been already decided


I guess that depends on whether your expectation is to completely turn history on its head, or to simply 'do better' than history for whichever side you're playing.
I see these historically based games as the latter.

Do you start a '44 campaign as Germany expecting to 'win' the war?

(in reply to geozero)
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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/2/2015 8:45:35 PM   
geozero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

It's tough to play a strategic level game where you come into play in 1943-45... by this time the war has pretty much been already decided


I guess that depends on whether your expectation is to completely turn history on its head, or to simply 'do better' than history for whichever side you're playing.
I see these historically based games as the latter.

Do you start a '44 campaign as Germany expecting to 'win' the war?


That's my point. What's the purpose of paying so much for a game where you already pretty much know the outcome and will lose.

If you are going to do a strategic level game of WW2 you should do it the way the other games I mentioned have, which go back a few years to 1936 and allow you (as either Allied or Axis) to get your diplomacy and production/research in order to fight the war YOU want.

Because this game costs so much and because it starts so late in the game there is no point for me to buy it. If I just wanted a pretty map and push around counters I'd be playing something else.


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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/2/2015 11:47:09 PM   
LiquidSky


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I suppose because losing the war and losing the game are two very separate things.

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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/3/2015 12:02:13 AM   
geozero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I suppose because losing the war and losing the game are two very separate things.



Explain that?

Can you lose the war and win the game? Isn't the object of the game to win, by winning the war?

To this day I do not know a gamer that plays to lose and enjoys that. Seems counter intuitive.

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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/3/2015 12:16:44 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I suppose because losing the war and losing the game are two very separate things.



Explain that?

Can you lose the war and win the game? Isn't the object of the game to win, by winning the war?


You never played Avalon Hill's France 1940.... :)

http://www.wargameacademy.org/F40/

Its popularity suffered front the accurate situation that the Allies cannot defeat the Germans and are playing a defensive role in a lop-sided contest. However as a wargame, the Allies can 'defeat' the Germans by denying them a historical or more expensive victory


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Post #: 68
RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/3/2015 3:47:27 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

That's my point. What's the purpose of paying so much for a game where you already pretty much know the outcome and will lose.


Because you don't always know the outcome.
I definitely don't know the course that leads to the outcome I expect, because neither side is likely to play to historical fidelity in a bid to best historical results.
I may even be surprised depending on how well my opponent manages his forces. That's what is fun about the MP games vs the AI games - if you mystify, mislead, and surprise your human opponent he can't warp an army in front of you.

Probably the most fun game I had in WitE was a '44 GC as the Germans.
I didn't start out expecting to win, but I wanted to see how I could do.
In fact, what spurred me to accept it was the repetition of accepting '41 campaigns that people quit the moment things appeared to go south for them. I figured if I was on the 'losing' end maybe the opponent would stick around and I could play the game. Ha! Jokes on me...

quote:

If you are going to do a strategic level game of WW2 you should do it the way the other games I mentioned have, which go back a few years to 1936 and allow you (as either Allied or Axis) to get your diplomacy and production/research in order to fight the war YOU want.


I guess there are other games that allow you to create fantasy WW2 scenarios, but there are also folks like me who are more interested in replaying Op. Husky than fantasizing about Plan Z. I personally don't want to see this title mimic those. Then there is no choice left.
Different strokes for different folks.

quote:

Because this game costs so much and because it starts so late in the game there is no point for me to buy it.


The money is negligible to me because I picked this title up in December and am easily at pennies on the hour of entertainment. I'm not even sure what else compares in that scale, and I know I have a ways to go. Maybe some folks only play a game like this for a week or two, but I don't, so I don't mind the 'investment'. Going out to dinner two nights, or having a game like this to play for months (or years). That's not a hard decision for me.


quote:

If I just wanted a pretty map and push around counters I'd be playing something else.


I have to say, since I first picked up Second Front in high school for my 4Mhz PC Grigsby's game engines have given me a better 'feeling of recreating WW2 scenarios than other titles I've played. Maybe its just a 'flavor' thing. God knows there are games I don't appreciate that consider themselves 'wargames'.

(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 69
RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/4/2015 6:50:29 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I suppose because losing the war and losing the game are two very separate things.



Explain that?

Can you lose the war and win the game? Isn't the object of the game to win, by winning the war?

To this day I do not know a gamer that plays to lose and enjoys that. Seems counter intuitive.


If you want to win the War as the Axis you could pretty try board game World in Flames. This game has the Axis overated on design, to give them a better chance to win.

I have played a lot but i am quite over this game personally.

I look more at balanced games like WitE or WitW. Some players may complain that one side is too strong or the other. Players always complain that some side or the other is too strong, even after patches and patches and patches. This is the same story overall with almost everygame that i have known. I take as example, Company of Heroes, World of Warcraft, etc. basically all RTS and all MMOs, always the same story.

Axis can lose the war and win the game nevertheless, if Axis puts a good defense. It begins in 1943 when Axis is pressured on all fronts, so if you want to steamroll all Europe with your panzers, this is not the game you want. You could try WitE, or another game where you can play the Axis in 1939-42, when Axis has the initiative.

Michel.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 3/5/2015 3:54:04 PM >


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(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 70
RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/4/2015 11:19:59 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

So I'll propose a few solutions:

* The naval-air interdiction mission is a fascinating system that's broken. Pelton destroyed my landings with it, and I just did the same to another experienced player. The Germans can muster close to a thousand bombers, concentrate them on the numerous airfields in Italy and France, and totally seal off the beachheads. Losses aren't a problem; the Luftwaffe gets nearly a hundred bombers a turn, and they only need to fly intensively for a few turns while the beachhead is destroyed or contained. The other problem is that the beachheads can easily be isolated by interdiction. One solution is to increase shipping and supply losses, but make it fairly hard to totally isolate the beachheads.

* As some of us warned back in the beta, the East Front box is a problem. In '43, the Germans can take all the mountain divisions, several panzer divisions and heavy tank battalions, and Luftwaffe fighters and bombers (a huge plus for naval-air interdiction) without jeopardizing their Eastern situation. The Allies have enough problems without Grossdeutschland leading the counterattack on the beaches.

* One reason the Germans never destroyed a landing was because they were afraid the Allies would land elsewhere. That uncertainty is somewhat modeled by the garrison rules, but only somewhat. The Germans know that the Allies have six amphibious TFs, so they calculate how much capacity the Allies have used and how long it will take to recycle before the next invasion. Modeling Hitler's paranoia and indecision like personally restricting the panzers on D-Day, or Allied deception operations like Fortitude, is tough. But without them, the game becomes ahistorically tough for the Allies.

* As some have pointed out, the VP penalty for Allied casualties is crazy. In WITW, attrition actually favors the Germans.

Michael



I'm not sure if I ever commented on the suggestions in the OP so here goes:

1) This has already been addressed in the current public beta.

2)We are very willing to make changes if we get some data to go by. Pelton stopped using the East Front option probably a year ago, long before many changes were made. We have little hard data to go on, and nothing I've seen that shows that the German player can use the current EF option and crush the Allies. In fact, until the recent change was made to make sure that at least 20% of German manpower was reserved for the Western Front when using the East Front option, I was of the opinion that players not using the EF Option had an advantage over those that did. The East Front tended to chew up manpower and suck out more than 80% of total manpower, so over time the Western Front would be weaker than it would be without the option. The way to make up for that was to withdraw units, but this cuts morale on the East Front and things can spiral downward. I would love to see AARs and game results of games using the EF option and those not using the EF option.

3) It is quite possible that the Allied amphibious capabilities are stronger in WitW than they were historically. Unless they lose a lot of transports in 43, this is probably true in 44. The recent game where Liquid Sky invaded Holland in 43 and defeated Pelton shows that there is the ability to surprise the German player.

4) We're perfectly willing to tweak the VP formulas, including those for Allied casualties. We just need data, so AAR's or game results would be very useful.

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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RE: Does WITW Favor the Germans? - 3/4/2015 11:28:16 PM   
LiquidSky


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The game I'm playing with DicedT has the EF box on. I'm neutral towards it's use as i think there are tradeoffs. I can see the allure of all those shiny toys, however concentrations of force are just meat for the airforce.

All in all though...i think EF box on is probably more fun for the German player

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“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 72
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