RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES

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RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 11:53:03 AM

Tazak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTTODD
Even more confused know about M1A1 armour value, as you said M1A1 has same hull armour as M1A(H), so if only hull armour is used they should be the same!

I'll admit that bit was just to show that there are a wide range of armor stats depending on where you look, and I decided to look at DU armor placement more as a curiosity after recalling a image from steel beasts that highlights strong and weak spots on frontal armor of various tanks so take it with a very heavy pinch of salt

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Post #: 31

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 12:20:59 PM

CapnDarwin

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This is where the confusion starts. With the M1 in game we have 4 versions:
The original M1 with 105mm gun and kinetic protection in the range of 350 to 400.
The M1IP (improved) had an armour upgrade up around 4 500m or so, but still had a 105mm gun.
The M1A1 had the IP armor, but upgunned to the 120mm gun. Plus some other systems.
The M1A1(HA) or heavy armor version introduced the first generation DU liners in the armor. This jumped it's armor to the 600 to 650mm range. The HEAT armor ran about twice the kinetic in all cases.

This matches most source info I have. Even today it's hard to find good data estimates for this stuff.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Tazak)

Post #: 32

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 12:44:36 PM

MTTODD

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Hi,

Does the game differentiate between hull & turrent armour ?

Or are the values you quote just for hull ?

Many thanks.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 33

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 1:50:13 PM

ivanov

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

The M1A1(HA) or heavy armor version introduced the first generation DU liners in the armor. This jumped it's armor to the 600 to 650mm range. The HEAT armor ran about twice the kinetic in all cases.

This matches most source info I have. Even today it's hard to find good data estimates for this stuff.

This roughly matches the info I provided:

quote:

ORIGINAL: katukov

M1A1HA:

Hull vs APFSDS 600mm; Hull vs HEAT 700mm; Turret vs APFSDS 800mm; Turret vs HEAT 1300mm

The real question is how T-80B/BV fits into the picture, since we know that T80U would have a simmilar or slightly better protection than M1A1HA. It's a really important question because those versions are the most numerous in the Soviet arsenal.This is what wiki states:

T80B:

Hull 440-450 mm vs APFSDS 500-575 mm vs HEAT, Turret 500 mm vs APFSDS 650 mm vs HEAT

Significantly lower protection than M1A1 and M1A1HA. Can someone challange those estimates?

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Post #: 34

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 2:10:19 PM

cbelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTTODD

Hi,

Does the game differentiate between hull & turrent armour ?

Or are the values you quote just for hull ?

Many thanks.

Yes and no, but not really (how's that for an answer?). I have been spending time with the data files recently trying to get a handle on how it works. From what I have been able to determine is that the armor protection in an average of the frontal hull and turret. Capt D can correct me if I am wrong.

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Post #: 35

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 2:13:31 PM

MTTODD

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With an answer like that you should be a politician!

(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 36

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 2:28:18 PM

Tazak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTTODD

With an answer like that you should be a politician!

Playing several games you get to notice a lot of game dev's need similar skills to politicians

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Post #: 37

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 2:42:48 PM

CapnDarwin

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Sorry, my reception in my office is horrible and my reply was lost in the ether. It is an average of the frontal hull and turret. I am toying with the idea of using a 70/30 turret/hull going forward with 2.1 to better reflect that tanks would be using cover with less hull exposure to fire.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 38

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 5:30:44 PM

cbelva

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Like I said, "Yes and no, but not really ."

Now get out and vote for me

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Post #: 39

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 5:43:15 PM

CapnDarwin

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_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to cbelva)

Post #: 40

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 8:22:53 PM

ivanov

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Currently the front armor protection values look a follows:

M1-27; M1A1-33; M1AHA-41

T80B-34; T80BV-35; T80U-42

I reworked them using the data I've found during my research. I used the same methodology as the devs - the values reflect average of the frontal hull and turret against the APFSDS:

M1-27; M1A1-36; M1AHA-41

T80B-29; T80BV-30; T80U-42

So as you can see, the data for the M1, M1A1HA and T80U match up well, but there is a major discrepancy regarding the most numerous models M1A1 and T80B/BV. My average for the M1A1 armor is 600mm, while according to few sources the T80B protection is no higher than 500mm.

I'm not biased against any side and the estimates I've used for M1A1 and T80B originate actually from the Soviet sources.

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Post #: 41

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 8:44:15 PM

CapnDarwin

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The majority of info I have seen shows the 3 levels of M1 as I showed above. The M1A1(HA) is the first in the series to hit 600mm. The A1 and IP versions are roughly the same and in once case I've seen the turret armor slightly better maybe worth a 1 to 2 point step up of the A1 wrt the IP version. SO maybe we look at splitting some hairs and the M1IP stays at 33 and the M1A1 goes to 36 and the other two stay as is.

5 points on the 2 T-80Bs is huge. I'll review Soviet armor numbers this weekend and see if I agree with those values.

As for the Challenger 1. Its sitting just north of 550mm and is only outclassed by the DU lined M1A1HA and the T-80U. It sits well with our data.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to ivanov)

Post #: 42

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/24/2015 9:09:47 PM

MTTODD

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Previously discussed Challenger 1 in another post, you said your calculations showed that it should be 38 not 37.

Otherwise the 50mm difference (600 v 550+) represents 4 points difference(41 v 37), that seems a lot, maybe 3 points or less is more accurate ?

Really appreciate you taking the time to look at this, just want best game as possible.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 43

RE: TANK ARMOR PROTECTION VALUES - 4/25/2015 12:56:27 AM

ivanov

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin
5 points on the 2 T-80Bs is huge. I'll review Soviet armor numbers this weekend and see if I agree with those values.

I think this is the major issue here. According to what I've found, the T80B had an average protection of 500mm. The T80BV was equipped with the first generation ERA, which wasn't really changing anything against the APFSDS, but you could give it one point more than the T80BV.

_____________________________

Lest we forget.

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Post #: 44