Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Extending the map into other theaters creates another problem. Currently the database for units is fairly close to full and adding much more would be impossible. A war in Europe would also have to institute borders and neutrality that the current game system doesn't really handle.

As mentioned, supply and resources were also a different situation in Europe than in the Pacific. Germany was in a constant struggle for enough oil after the war with the USSR started, but for most other things, Germany could get what it needed either at home or near home (such as trading with Sweden). They did have some desperate shortages of some resources needed in limited quantities, but it was similar to the needs Japan had for some other limited quantity resources.

The siege of Britain was a situation of getting military material in, but also feeding the population too. I think the supply moving across the Atlantic would have to reflect the needs for feeding the civilian population as well as the military needs.

Some others have pointed out the hex scale is probably too small for Europe. Another issue is just about every single hex on the continent that isn't a mountain is a potential base. In North Africa and the steppes of the USSR, ad hoc airfields were set up just about anywhere needed. Planes would be ferried back to a field with more facilities for maintenance. The game engine currently can't do that. Damaged planes are always grounded.

I'm not saying that a European game would be impossible with this engine, but it would need some work.

A full world game would be interesting. It would probably take more than a day a turn to play, but I think you would have to break up the game data into theaters with units transferable between theater data bases. Then as you switch theaters, it loads up the data bases for that theater. To play with everything in one set of data bases would probably make everything way too slow.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.

quote:

then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

yes. The scale in BfN is 1,270 YARDS/hex. I calculated that 60 BfN hexes would fit into a single Bfn hex. Imagine all the pieces in the BfN game crammed into the total number of hexes in BfN for all maps divided by 60. Then imagine using the current AE interface to interact with all of them. This does NOT sound like much fun to me.

If you want to take the WitP system and use it on the same scale as BfN, you have just as many issues. Ranges need to redone, number of ships increased (since the scale is smaller), etc. Plus 1 day turns in the ETO

I (and a lot of other people here) would MUCH rather have a WitP II versus something you are discussing. So if you really have the funds to support game development, I would suggest you use them in a way that you would have a huge amount of support for versus something that only would appeal to a few.

Now if you want to develop a game just for yourself to enjoy, then go for it. Who knows it may turn out better than what we think now. But I would have no interest in a WitP scale ETO game. I would be very interested in an even smaller scale WitP maybe 20 miles/hex Of course if you really wanted to help out 2by3 and Matrix, scale it down to 10 miles/hex and then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The European conflict was primarily a continental war with secondary naval campaigns. The Battle of the Atlantic was critical for the UK's survival, but it was fought with forces that are a sideshow in AE (subs and escorts). WitP/AE is primarily an air/naval game with secondary land campaigns. Burma was a major land campaign, but it was very slow and drawn out. It was fought with much smaller forces than the battles in the Pacific.

The AE game engine does not handle continental land combat very well. It does OK with islands, but gets wonky the larger the territory.

Any game that covers any part of Europe would have to address and rewrite the land combat engine. The hex scale would also need to be much smaller, something on the order of 5-10 miles per hex. The smaller hexes will also require some reworking of naval combat because larger gun ships will be able to shoot into the next hex.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks

There is something sort of magic about the WitP games (from Uncommon Valor through AE) that draws people in like few other games do. What you mention above is some of those factors that a new development would want to preserve. It's the same sort of calculus that movie studios do trying to figure out why one movie becomes a classic everyone talks about for decades and others are forgettable fluff. What are the elements that make a game a hit in the gaming world?

BTW, the original engine for AE did come from 2X3, Gary Grigsby's company. We heavily modified it, but the bones are still his.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I sent an e-mail through Matrix so we can discuss anything further offline.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Now if you did reduce the map scale of the game so the ETO is a much better game, you then could have the AE experience in the ETO. But until the ETO game scale is addressed, I cannot imagine wanting to play an ETO game using the AE system as is. Wayyy too many other ways to spend my time having fun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
I haven't heard anybody say it's good idea to use the AE map scale in the ETO. The question is, how many things would require a total re-write if you drop the new map scale down into the "5-10" mile range as Bill mentioned earlier? He mentions naval gunnery, and probably the same would apply to certain land artillery pieces - those would now have combat effects in neighboring hexes. But issues with range (say for aircraft) *seem* like a simple conversion. For example, an aircraft with a 4 hex range in AE would have 16 in AE-ETO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well if the people involved in ToAW could ever get their act together, that is a great system that at least could get the air and land part of a campaign going