Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

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ORIGINAL: Pelton

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ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

rkimmi will resign or disappear before the end of the summer campaign. You heard it here first.

I don't think so he is good, we at turn 6 and I am not across the southern rivers.
Its a fun game as he is taking a different approach to defending.

and you were wrong as is normal about smokendave that one will go the distance.

anything else you like to say that will be proven wrong by the data?

Ahem... (cough, cough)

He is good, eh? rofl.

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ORIGINAL: chaos45

One thing ive noticed from reading most of your opening moves pelton and the reason many players basically seem to auto lose as the soviets vs you is that you are moving way fast than historical period.

Such as your often at Pskov and driving on leningrad when historically the Germans were still taking Daug and Riga. Same in the South, this in turn means the soviets with Historical unit call ups will never have enough to put in the way. I understand you and others have worked and worked on the engine for balance as it was to far in favor of the Soviets in the past but it really is starting the opposite with opening moves.

Now im not an expert at the game by any stretch but against AI with a bonus I got pretty historical results going into 42 so far on my newest replay. That was without using any HQ Build ups...maybe thats whats breaking the system? Think either the Germans have to much movement or their logistics is way to good at keeping those panzers supplied one of the two....that hook move around leningrad ive seen you do in 2 games now...impossible in real life period. Germans simply had no capability for logistics at all that far forward that early, no food, no gas, no ammo period...just whatever trickle you could fly that far...and well lets be honest in real life those forward airbases wouldnt have the supplies on hand to even fly them that far to the advance lol.

I figure you might have researched the campaign heavily yourself, but even the German logistics generals said they didnt have the resources for this campaign and recommended against it....an maybe being a logistics officer myself we usually know what were talking about when the commanders start talking some half-baked idea we know are impossible with resources at our disposal. Plus the campaign proved even more trying on the logistics elements than orignially thought...and they said they didnt have the resources to begin with....not to mention with the ton of extra issues...rail re-gauge, partisans, scorched earth.....As capturing extensive Soviet Rail stocks and using the Soviet Gauge/trains was part of the initial plan...and when that didnt happen it put even more strain. Plus in real life the Soviets fought alot harder than they do in the game...slowed entire divisions for weeks and inflicted much heavier losses than anticipated.

Issues such as a KV tanks and T34s disrupted and delayed divisional operations not to mention inflicted some very telling early losses on the panzer divisions that would play out as the campaign went on and the tank strength in most panzer divisions became non-existant.

I understand the desire to make a game playable and fun, but it really is starting to seem the Germans have a big edge over real life esp by players that have experience in the system. The real life german attack and advance was honestly very close to best case scenario...so in the game getting twice that far in the same time is just purely unrealistic and starts to kill any realism/fun from the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

rkimmi will resign or disappear before the end of the summer campaign. You heard it here first.

I don't think so he is good, we at turn 6 and I am not across the southern rivers.
Its a fun game as he is taking a different approach to defending.

and you were wrong as is normal about smokendave that one will go the distance.

anything else you like to say that will be proven wrong by the data?

Ahem... (cough, cough)

He is good, eh? rofl.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I belive chaos45 get the point.

My 2 cent about the WITE rules/game system.


1. Lvov pocket - unrealistic, nondefendable

Lvov historically possible and yes it would be undefendable based simply on putting 3 more panzer divisions in AGS

2. The soviet units has to high movement rate (same as the german)

yes and no. All across the front no - in some cases sure they have same MPs as Germans-not an easy thing to model

3. The industry evacuation is still to easy. +50-100% rail cost will be more realistic. During 42 full soviet fronts could be railed, more then 300000+ men and equipment.

I disagree some as Russians were able to rail allot of industry out, because they fought forward not railing out men and tanks

4. HQBU kills the game.

I stated and put in my AAR I did not do a single HQBU until turn 6 so I find it hard to believe something not used turns 1-5 kills the game. That 1 was used up north only 13 hexes from RH

5. Movement cost should be rethinked. Moving on road/rail/city hex could cost 1 MP, other clear terrain movement cost should be base+1 (clear 2MP, forest 3 for panzers...). During the ww2 on eastern fronts, the roads were extreemly important.

window dressing not a real issue one way or the other

6. Flipping undefended, non ZOC enemy hex cost to high. This is a critical, because several german player don't protect their flank, because the soviet forces never could gain territories back, and threat the main offensive.
I belive all move cost, marching on enemy hex could be just +1 for all forces (+2 for brigades).

I think this would simply make GHC mobile units even better and make my job as German player to easy and unbalance game

7. Isolated terrain flip is to easy. For example the Lvov pocket open flips several soviet hex, and only need one armor unit to do that.

Not sure what you mean, land is over run it should flip, but if your talking about the hexes in the pocket I agree. Hexes in a pocket should not change control

8. HQ and air bases should have 25 MP. They are damn fast, and illogical why... even the infntry corps to.

I agree

9. Higher soviet casultied, when they attacking (or defending).

I agree, but not sure that can be modeled in game engine as combat ect has to work both ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ohh you are a master of the game logistics system I dont argue. What Im saying is the game is broken as far as logistics go and thats whats allowing you to trash the soviets twice as fast as historical in the early turns lol.

Historical fall of Riga/Diaguvlas(SP) is end of June....in your games your on to Pskov and moving towards leningrad by the end of June. In real life/historical stance Soviet resistance held up the advance of AG North for weeks.

As to logistics through Romania....my guess would be that again real life logistics prevented this, trying to supply major military operations on an allied rail network most likely impossible. Is many reasons for this, first off working with local officials, secondly further for German trains moving from Germany where supplies are located instead from depots in Poland/Germany. Also my guess would be lack of technology/inftrastructure to support multiple german armies...also a big one buy in from Romania to station even more German troops in their country that early. Even if all these things fell in order, the Logistics system would have to be prepared before had which might have tipped the Soviets off to the impending attack...secrecy was part of the reason the Germans didnt pursue this. 11st Army was originally in Romania to train the Romanian Army as a premise for its presence. Harder to explain panzer divisions.

Also the the Status of Forces agreement between Germany/Romanian limited German troops in the country. Pesky things like politics have impacts on military operations more often then us arm chair general like to acknowledge.

As to the railing tanks to Romania to attack, again the logistics issues. As I said the game will let you do all these very unhistorical things and rock forward at twice the historical advance those are issues with the game. I have extensively researched the eastern front...the game to be realistic has to do one of two things to fix the issues:

1) Make initial Soviet resistence harder to overcome so it costs the Germans more movement points/casualties/disruption to delay quick movement

AGN and AGC advance in game is basicly historical the first 2 turns so tring to code out 1/3 of the front is not likely. AGS Lvov pocket is possible historically. Players sending another 3 panzer divisions from AGC south to AGS is not unhistorically possible. Its a game not a movie, I am not a robot and have to leave the 3 panzer divisions to go east with AGC, I am a thinking human being who chooses to make an historically possible move.

2) reduce initial German logistics/rail capactiy to limit the very unhistorical and unrealistic redeployments/use of german forces. In all reality the Germans probably shouldnt have any rail use or very limited rail use for the first several turns to limit this ridiculous redeployment of forces to Romania. The German rail network was super stressed just trying to supply the offensive and extend the rail network let alone redeploy entire Corps/Armies.

Again it is 100% historically possible to rail 2 MoT divisions from Poland to Romania

Lets not even talk how easy supply and replacements flow in the game....in real life the German divisions recieved pretty much no to very few replacements until after the first winter. One reason the Soviet counterattacks were so successful. As the Germans/Hitler thought they would win by Christmas and withheld replacements especially in tanks until after that. An even if they had wanted to send replacements the rail network simply couldnt handle the load as just building materials to fix the railroads and supply were taking up everything the rail network could handle.

historically speaking Hitler wanted to stop before the last push for Moscow, but he was convinced by the generals to change his mind. After the defeat at Moscow is when Hitler started distrusting his generals, which was stupid on his part because they were most often right after that.

Again im not criticizing your game play you are doing everything within your power to win based on what the game engine allows you to do. All im saying is these are big flaws in the game system that arent giving an accurate picture of the real campaign/circumstances. If Historically the Germans had been 2-3 weeks faster like you are in most of your games the Soviet Union most likely would have collapsed or at least been majorly impacted to the point of dragging the war out till the A-bomb due to the loss of leningrad/Moscow in 1941. An its strongly debated that the loss of those 2 cities plus most of the south would have cause a collapse.

However many issues cause the Germans to not have those 2-3 weeks of good weather to finish the deal....soviet resistence and logistics being the main ones. The Soviet resistance is a casualty issue..the game allows far to many attacks a turn with low losses...in general should be fewer bloodier attacks each turn, and slower replacement flow to both sides especially when in the frontline. A failed division level assault should be a minimum of 500+ losses and even a successful attack into a fortified location your talking 500+ losses. This would reduce German offensive capability probably more in line with what it should be as the campaign closes on leningrad/moscow especially if replacement flow is limited like historical. As it would grind those elite formations down like they were historically.

Keep in mind even modern military thinking 10% losses to achieve a mission/objective is acceptable...so General bob is told to take that river crossing hes going to keep trying until hes suffered at least 10% losses and even then if hes determined and wants promoted hes going to push past that........General has 16k troops at his disposal and launches a 100% effort to take the crossing and fails....should be 1-2k losses at least.....you wont see that in the game.....only corps level battles see losses up to 1k usually and even thats really low for 100k+ troops engaged.

If you read the real situation the Germans were so desperate for manpower over the winter they had infantry battalions/replacements flown in as the units at the front were becoming non-existant. Something you dont see in this game. Units shouldnt shatter just be slowly ground to dust as thats really what historically happened. Only when grossly outmatched usually by massed tanks did units really shatter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

rkimmi will resign or disappear before the end of the summer campaign. You heard it here first.

I don't think so he is good, we at turn 6 and I am not across the southern rivers.
Its a fun game as he is taking a different approach to defending.

and you were wrong as is normal about smokendave that one will go the distance.

anything else you like to say that will be proven wrong by the data?

Ahem... (cough, cough)

He is good, eh? rofl.