RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta!

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/21/2015 8:18:17 PM

GJK

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No, no understandings Hexagon

I know that TOTH isn't ASL but it may be close enough to relate to you how ASL handles "casualties".

In ASL, you have what is roughly a "squad". At the start of the battle, they are all "Good Order" meaning that every member of the squad is ready, willing and able to contribute firepower when the time comes to shoot. Depending on the nationality and type of squad, it is rated for a combat effectiveness value (not an ASL term, but my own), meaning that they are given a number that would be their firepower strength total when fully "good order".

When a squad suffers adverse results by the way of combat, then the effectiveness of the squad may deteriorate meaning that the firepower strength number is lowered (roughly halved usually). This could of been caused not only by death, but by having squad members wounded or rolled up into a ball on the ground or just plain refusing to contribute. This is when a squad goes from 100% fully functioning to roughly half. Could ASL of gone 3/4, then 1/2, then 1/4? Sure, if you wanted to add another 5000 counters to the countermix. Does a computer game have that limitation? No but (again, not speaking for Peter!) I believe that Peter indicated that he wanted to pay homage to the boardgame roots and so it goes 100->50%(roughly)->eliminated (combat effective wise).

In ASL, support weapons add to the base firepower number of a squad that is manning it. That's simple enough. Machineguns and mortars (and other artillery guns) have a "rate of fire" meaning that those weapons were able to lay enough lead/shells on to a target within the approximated time that a turn is meant to represent that they have a *possibility* of continuing their firepower attack. What is cool about this if you think about it - an MG42 we know has a definitive rate of fire that I'm too lazy to go google right now. ASL doesn't represent *that* number; it represents that the machinegun *could* obtain that number (in ASL, if one of your dice are equal or lower than the ROF number you have opportunity to continue the attack) but also is the team/persona manning the gun in a position to actually carry that rate of fire? Did he hesitate for just a second, thus losing the rate of fire? In the abstraction of the terrain, did the target quickly dart behind something that is too small to represent on the mapboard and thus he let up off the trigger for a second, thus losing ROF? Yes, all very abstracted but wonderfully integrated in to that game system. Thus I'm most curious to see how Peter has put his ideas to use in a computer game that in at least a good bit of it, seems a lot like ASL. ;)

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 2:20:14 AM

benpark

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Peter- is there a way to have "non-elite" grade units from the categories listed as "elite"? I'm thinking of late war SS and FJ units, for instance, where the manpower isn't what was available earlier in the war.

Everything sounds great. I'm also hoping multi-floor buildings are possible at some point.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 10:24:52 AM

Hexagon

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Well for me when games enter in the abstract area are "harder" to understand, i can learn them mechanic but only for the game, sometimes i feel that i am more learning how do things for a certain engine over using what i read.

Is not bad and is not good, is simple another thing you need learn, asume and deal with it.

PD: ROF... maybe here i prefer as value for MGs ammo because for example MG42 has a certain ROF but you are not forced to use it specially in LMGs with a lot less ammo than tripod version and not all HMG had true high ROF, they use more the bigger ammo load they carry.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 11:29:19 AM

Firebri

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To me, if the game is hex / turn based and has the same quality graphics of Close Combat. it will be great

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 11:43:58 AM

Hexagon

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Well, the cenital view of close combat allways offer pretty maps, with hexes is harder but for example the improvement in map art in Flashpoint was

something like this for the game

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 4:59:18 PM

Ratzki

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I sure hope that we get a few screenshots soon.
I am sure that if the game is good the Modders will come out and pretty things up for us. As for the abstractions, as soon as you have a hex based game you will need to abstrct elements of combat ect. I think that a person can meet in the middle somewhere though, between using what baordgames "had" to abstract and the counting of every bullet and grenade. Would be nice to see a three or maybe four step loss abstraction to squads and half squads based on the original full strength size of the squad and weapons loadout.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 5:04:06 PM

wodin

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To be honest i's the gameplay that I'm really interested in over graphics. Graphics in a hex and counter wargame really only need o be functional.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 5:46:53 PM

zakblood

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must agree there, as long as it plays well, eye candy is second to me also

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:23:03 PM

Peter Fisla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Peter- is there a way to have "non-elite" grade units from the categories listed as "elite"? I'm thinking of late war SS and FJ units, for instance, where the manpower isn't what was available earlier in the war.

Everything sounds great. I'm also hoping multi-floor buildings are possible at some point.

I guess something to consider for the expansion, for the initial release all the features are already locked in. All the development is done at this pint, what remains is a bug hunt :)

Peter

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:29:57 PM

zakblood

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well let the beta and bug hunting begin, i'm free and more than ready to start the march

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:39:51 PM

Firebri

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Is it a standard thing to put you forum password on a beta sign up page ?

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:40:03 PM

Peter Fisla

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One other thing I wanted to mention, yes the game computer specs requirements are not high, however the AI, LOS and pathfinding logic requires a lot of CPU power on larger scenarios. I rewrote the AI logic twice, I think I spent about 1+ year on the AI alone. I figured I do it right the first time and let the hardware catch up. Pathfinding is also detailed (options: Low, Medium, High) because I'm dealing with dynamic maps - meaning users can make their own maps hex by hex. LOS (Line of Sight) is detailed, down to a pixel level. Originally I used Windows GDI built in graphics engine so that even people on linux could run the game (using wine layer). About a year ago, I switched to GDI+ to take advantage of some of the advanced graphics functions built into windows, hoping that GDI+ is supported in wine for linux. For this reason I avoided using Microsoft Directx graphics engine. All the sound files are in ogg vorbis format. I wanted to be as much independent from Windows technology as possible, so that the game runs on future version of windows as much as possible. I have tested the game in Windows 10, so far so good.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 5/22/2015 8:41:50 PM >

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:56:03 PM

zakblood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerbri

Is it a standard thing to put you forum password on a beta sign up page ?

yes

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 7:59:45 PM

zakblood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

One other thing I wanted to mention, yes the game computer specs requirements are not high, however the AI, LOS and pathfinding logic requires a lot of CPU power on larger scenarios. I rewrote the AI logic twice, I think I spent about 1+ year on the AI alone. I figured I do it right the first time and let the hardware catch up. Pathfinding is also detailed (options: Low, Medium, High) because I'm dealing with dynamic maps - meaning users can make their own maps hex by hex. LOS (Line of Sight) is detailed, down to a pixel level. Originally I used Windows GDI built in graphics engine so that even people on linux could run the game (using wine layer). About a year ago, I switched to GDI+ to take advantage of some of the advanced graphics functions built into windows, hoping that GDI+ is supported in wine for linux. For this reason I avoided using Microsoft Directx graphics engine. All the sound files are in ogg vorbis format. I wanted to be as much independent from Windows technology as possible, so that the game runs on future version of windows as much as possible. I have tested the game in Windows 10, so far so good.

win 10 beta tbh it's as much of a departure away from 8.1 than many think, i still run win xp, 7,8.1 and win 10 beta so have them all to test with, and dual core, 4 and 6 core pc's, plus a 8 core high end gaming rig so like your thinking, 2, 4 and 6 gb vga cards just in case...

so ready

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/22/2015 8:11:47 PM

Firebri

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That's me signed up.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/23/2015 12:28:02 AM

farnarkle

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Hello team, Have signed up and read through the pages of the forum thus far. This looks a very interesting project. Well done Peter for getting it this far. Will be interesting to see what this looks like and see if we can break it

It looks and feels so much like ASL from the info posted. As a long time ASL player there are days when you just don't want to look up that obscure rule on pushing an assault boat.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/23/2015 12:50:22 AM

Gargoyl

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Glad to read about the emphasis on AI and pathfinding. To me, these were the weaknesses of the CC series. All the eye candy in the world means little to me if the AI isn't at least moderately competent.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/23/2015 2:00:25 AM

wodin

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Close Combat though a series many moons ago I loved has for me dropped of the chart when it comes to realism. CC2 was the best of them all and the one I'd still class as a grog wargame.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/23/2015 7:15:58 AM

farnarkle

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I agree Wodin, the CC series, was a real eye opener. I remember owning the first 4 of the series and then found a bug in a campaign, too many wrecks. Game wouldn't proceed. Gave up on it after that, I agree that CC2 Russian front was a lot of fun. Played an ASL game from an old SL series scenario 85 "The Far Bank" a couple of weeks ago. 8x german engineer squads + 4 leaders assault across a river initially defended by 3 partisan squads and 1 leader all concealed in either the occasional building or woods. Germans got across the river OK, Partisans held their fire until germans adjacent 1 german squad and the XO leader smashed by point blank fire from a partisan LMG + squad, at the same time in a building not far away the engineers enter melee after weathering a storm of fire and wipe out the partisan squad in the building. Russian reinforcements in the form 12 squads a MMG and 3 LMG's + 2 Leaders + a commissar attempt to reduce the bridgehead and regain control of the buildings near the river bank, and the germans trying to expand their tenuous foothold. Game went all 11 turns until a desperate assault by 3 Russian squads on a pinned german squad in one of the VP buildings was cut down by accurate long range supporting fire from another German squad and LMG as the Russians crossed the intervening open ground. Fun game with the result see sawing right till the end. If TotH has that level of tension it will be a real cracker.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/23/2015 4:57:28 PM

bott.2

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I signed up for beta testing a few days ago. Sounds like a great game. Will testing begin soon?
Thanks

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 12:29:36 AM

Gargoyl

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Sorry to hear there won't be upper floor levels (and I assume sewers to crawl through). I assume there have to be trenches at least for the purposes of concealment and cover. Will there be hills? I hope there is some height advantage capability in the game.

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 1:03:36 AM

Peter Fisla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anton

Sorry to hear there won't be upper floor levels (and I assume sewers to crawl through). I assume there have to be trenches at least for the purposes of concealment and cover. Will there be hills? I hope there is some height advantage capability in the game.

Yes, there will be trenches, base + 4 level of hills. Please see the attached Terrain Effect Chart...

Thanks

Peter

Attachment (1)

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 7:13:22 AM

Gribeauval

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hello Peter, will the game have air support ? You mention some anti-air units, but no planes.
The ASL manual must be a really big one. How long is the current manual of your game ?

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 10:12:48 AM

Gargoyl

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Thanks. Peter, for the clarification on terrain advantages and the chart. It's looking good!

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 3:23:06 PM

Ratzki

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Do we know when the beta might be starting?

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 3:40:13 PM

zakblood

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until those who signed up get a reply, then no, as it's in matrix hands now so everyone just waits and looks at the emails hoping to be one who gets selected in the first of many waves

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 4:05:39 PM

jamespcrowley

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Peter, are there hexside terrain features such as walls, hedgerow, river/stream etc and/or provision for obstacles - AT trench, barbed wire and so on?
Also no mention of marsh/swamp/bog?

< Message edited by James Crowley -- 5/25/2015 5:08:35 PM >

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 5:18:58 PM

Peter Fisla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

Peter, are there hexside terrain features such as walls, hedgerow, river/stream etc and/or provision for obstacles - AT trench, barbed wire and so on?
Also no mention of marsh/swamp/bog?

Sorry, not in the initial release...perhaps in the future.

Gribeauval, there is no air support though there is off-board artillery. My current version of the manual is 60 pages long (word document) just pure text. In addition, I have a lot of pictures which will add to the overall page count.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 5/25/2015 6:23:00 PM >

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/25/2015 6:44:07 PM

Hexagon

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Thanks for the table.

Interesting, think that HT are to nimble but... HTs can enter in wood houses, maybe not all but barns and similars... in future could be interesting expand the terrain types with subtypes.

Is good know info step by step... even when they are giant steps

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 5/25/2015 7:46:04 PM >

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RE: Tigers on the Hunt needs true wargamers for beta! - 5/27/2015 7:39:52 AM

Ratzki

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Just wondering why Rivers/streams were left out of the game?

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