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RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right After All

 
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RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 1:39:41 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
JWE, this is probably not your best post, but I'm thinking it's the best I've seen, at least for a while. Thank you for this instructive post. Let me digress. It's likely not the best I've seen from you, in part because I've noticed you craft excellent posts frequently. You also know a lot of stuff most of the rest of us don't know. I don't know what the WITPAE gamers would do without your input. You are a more important asset to this forum than me, without question. That's all.

You are right Gorn, it wasn’t all that great. Maybe because my sister has submarines on the brain and they act a bit different from surface vessels. She’s a real tech freak, too. Some of it might not be too appropriate/correct when applied to surface ships, but what the hey, good enough for Govt. work. Anyway, thanks for the nice comments, ya’ll. I’ll try to do better and keep it simple next time. Ciao. JWE

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Post #: 31
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 2:22:21 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
JWE, this is probably not your best post, but I'm thinking it's the best I've seen, at least for a while. Thank you for this instructive post. Let me digress. It's likely not the best I've seen from you, in part because I've noticed you craft excellent posts frequently. You also know a lot of stuff most of the rest of us don't know. I don't know what the WITPAE gamers would do without your input. You are a more important asset to this forum than me, without question. That's all.

You are right Gorn, it wasn’t all that great. Maybe because my sister has submarines on the brain and they act a bit different from surface vessels. She’s a real tech freak, too. Some of it might not be too appropriate/correct when applied to surface ships, but what the hey, good enough for Govt. work. Anyway, thanks for the nice comments, ya’ll. I’ll try to do better and keep it simple next time. Ciao. JWE



Yeah , I used to have submarines on the brain (except in my case it's what they call in dogs "chase instinct"). Good news, you can eventually have it wear off!

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Post #: 32
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 3:00:31 PM   
Andav

 

Posts: 474
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline

Here is another picture of the Texas with some of those wave things on the front and back bits.

Wa






Attachment (1)

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 33
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 5:00:50 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav


Here is another picture of the Texas with some of those wave things on the front and back bits.

Wa



warspite1

Nice picture of her starbord cutting through the wavy stuff, creating white frothy action down her side bits.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Andav)
Post #: 34
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 5:07:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav


Here is another picture of the Texas with some of those wave things on the front and back bits.

Wa



warspite1

Nice picture of her starbord cutting through the wavy stuff, creating white frothy action down her side bits.

You silly boy. That foam is there to hide her bits!

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Post #: 35
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 5:35:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav


Here is another picture of the Texas with some of those wave things on the front and back bits.

Wa



warspite1

Nice picture of her starbord cutting through the wavy stuff, creating white frothy action down her side bits.

You silly boy. That foam is there to hide her bits!
warspite1

And you sir obviously know nothing about big boats an' £$%^. The foam is not there to hide her side bits but is in fact caused by the pointy starbord bit creating the wavy stuff that happens to hide her side bits, duh....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 36
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 6:03:41 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav


Here is another picture of the Texas with some of those wave things on the front and back bits.

Wa



warspite1

Nice picture of her starbord cutting through the wavy stuff, creating white frothy action down her side bits.

You silly boy. That foam is there to hide her bits!
warspite1

And you sir obviously know nothing about big boats an' £$%^. The foam is not there to hide her side bits but is in fact caused by the pointy starbord bit creating the wavy stuff that happens to hide her side bits, duh....


Bits, bits - oh, bits!

These bits here make a smiley face!

11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111110000111111111000011111111111111
11111111111110000111111111000011111111111111
11111111111110000111111111000011111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111111111110000011111111111111111111
11111111111111111110000011111111111111111111
11111111111111111110000011111111111111111111
11111111111111111110000011111111111111111111
11111111111111111110000011111111111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111000111111111111111000111111111111
11111111111000111111111111111000111111111111
11111111111000111111111111111000111111111111
11111111111000000000000000000000111111111111
11111111111000000000000000000000111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

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Post #: 37
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 6:59:01 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
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Ok, this has gotten a bit off track

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Post #: 38
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 7:14:42 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Ok, this has gotten a bit off track
warspite1

Soz mate, I suspect its all got a bit too technical for you. I'll leave the subject there.




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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 39
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/4/2015 9:59:11 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225
And just what the frig is a Froude limit? I'd check Wikipedia but that source seems discredited now.

It's the area just past the second gator outside the city limits of Tate's Hell J

Well frig me! I shoulda knowed that.


It’s kinda funny because I’m visiting my sister, who’s a designer at GD Electric Boat in Groton. I asked her the question .. “so .. just what the frik is a Froude limit?” You would not believe the “look” I got. Anyway, this is our collective take.

Froude number is ‘jargon’ that’s used as a way of talking about hull speed and wave resistance (drag). The energy to propel a hull through water is transferred to the water, creating standing waves (bow and stern waves). As speed varies, these waves change shape, magnitude and angle (wavelength, phase speed, etc. for the tech heads); they constructively and destructively interfere with one another. Points of interference have a pronounced effect on drag. Drag is relatively proportionally linear to power (speed) up to a first interaction point where it increases dramatically because of a shift in the wave train characteristic.

A simplistic way of looking at it, but one suitable for game terms, is this is the ‘economic’ cruise speed point. A second interaction point is where the ship kinda, sorta, ‘outruns’ the bow wave, thereby effectively constructively converging it with the stern wave, causing a huge shift in the wave train characteristic. Simplistically, this is the vessel’s effective hull speed, because power to make another half knot would be prohibitive (if it even exists) against the added drag.

The Froude number is the characteristic hydrodynamic flow velocity divided by the square root of a characteristic length. Because all vessels have different lengths, hull forms, etc., the Froude number permits comparison between heterogeneous vessels, because standing wave pattern generation is similar at similar Froude numbers for dissimilar vessels.

The Froude limits are (very simplistically) those points where the wavelength of the characteristic standing wave pattern is approximately ½ and 1 of the characteristic length of the vessel (tech heads can think of pi and 2pi superposition). It wouldn’t be too far off to think of Froude numbers (limits) as the hydrodynamic equivalent of Mach numbers.

Hope this helps. JWE



JWE, this is probably not your best post, but I'm thinking it's the best I've seen, at least for a while. Thank you for this instructive post. Let me digress. It's likely not the best I've seen from you, in part because I've noticed you craft excellent posts frequently. You also know a lot of stuff most of the rest of us don't know. I don't know what the WITPAE gamers would do without your input. You are a more important asset to this forum than me, without question. That's all.

+1.


+1

This stuff is amazing. Thanks for taking the time JWE

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 40
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/5/2015 5:54:37 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
This stuff is amazing. Thanks for taking the time JWE

My pleasure. Jeez, glad people like this stuff. Gorn didn’t like the Froude post too much; have to say I didn’t either. Doing some RL things on period sailing ships that have a lot of meta stability stuff going on and am using modern techniques to judge performance. I’m kinda immersed in the concepts, anyway, so going from a Sané fregate to a modern ain’t too far a stretch.

Yeah, ships make waves. Like any wave, they have peaks and valleys. Poking along, a ship is under the bow wave peak, is floating on her lines, and everything is wonderful as shown in the green lines of the diagram. As speed increases, things shift aft and eventually, she’ll get to the point where the bow-wave peak goes aft enough that her bow is in the trough of the generated wave train and is pushing/plunging against the face of the medium as shown by the red lines in the diagram. It’s like ploughing your face through mud. Drag increases non-proportionally. Ok, that’s Froude-1; the economic limit.

As speed increases further, the bow wave trough constructively interferes with the stern wave trough and you get a really deep trough under the stern. The diagram is of the bow wave; the stern wave is a bit different. The stern then drops and parks. So now you are dragging ass. Don’t think I need to detail the effect on drag with this configuration. So her butt is in a hole and it’s gonna take a poopload of extra power to get her out of it. That’s Froude-2; the hull speed limit.

Note: red and green waveforms differ by phase and are centered on the midships of the vessel. That’s why we thought it important to mention Froude numbers as a function of the vessel characteristic length. Wave formation is seriously dependent on the vessel’s length.

I hope this is better. Ciao. JWE





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/5/2015 6:56:57 PM >


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 41
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/5/2015 6:00:35 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Oh, aaargh. Here's the pic with the red and green lines.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/5/2015 7:03:56 PM >


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 42
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/6/2015 4:33:02 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

What was 1st US CV with non-wooded deck?


To answer your question it was the USS Midway. Laid down during the war but didn't become operational before it ended (IIRC). Eventually three ships of this class were completed. I believe a fourth was started but never completed.

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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Post #: 43
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/6/2015 7:58:11 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Ok, so the title is SOT. And this ain't got jack to do with Architects of Lore (Yore, or whatever).But it does have to do with the sea and the bounty it provides.

Next door neighbor was out fishing yesterday, looking for snapper. He couldn't get many because he had to beat the king mackerel away. So he's got a ton of King Mackerel and says "do you want some? And how do you want it; steaks or fillets?" I got a lot of both. He cut 6x serious steaks, and 3x fillets to die for. Recipes available on request. Ciao. JWE

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 44
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/6/2015 8:16:35 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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He's generous for sharing, nuts for not going after the king mackerel in the first place. King Mackerel are great!

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Post #: 45
RE: SOT: Naval Architects of Lore May Have Been Right A... - 6/7/2015 4:31:30 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
He's generous for sharing, nuts for not going after the king mackerel in the first place. King Mackerel are great!

I quite agree. I literally just pulled into the driveway from the airport and I was blown away. Kings !!?? Then I remembered it's snapper season in Alabama; you can only take two per person per boat and there's a lower limit on size. AL tries really hard to maintain the stocks, so in snapper season, you gotta try and catch snapper. Hard to believe, but Kings is just a bennie.

STOT - going to the Keys next month to see if I can snag some Pompano. Right now, I owe Randall big time. If I can get some Pompano, I'll own him.

Ciao. JWE

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 46
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