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Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1.08.03--closed

 
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Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1.08.... - 6/10/2015 1:55:47 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Hi, I just read David Stahel’s book ‘operation Barbarossa and Germany’s defeat in the east’ and want to play the WITE game as Germany again.
I am looking for a good soviet player to play a PBEM game on 1.08.03 version. I have played 3 PBEM games as German side and 2 PBEM games as Soviet and won all the games. I have done two AAR:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3381109
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3487083
I like to record my games, so I only play PBEM games. I see some people prefer server game, but I think people are fine to hold different preference, and it should be fine. It is fair to both sides, just like server games.
I don’t view playing this game as a process to decide which player is better than the other; rather, I view it as the two people experiencing the game together, trying to offer his best strategy. I have only one goal in playing the game: learning something which is beneficial for my real life.
In my opinion, Wite is so huge that it could never be a perfectly balance game, often it favors towards one side, or the other, so it is not an ideal platform to decide which player is better. Also, it could not be perfectly representing the history; therefore, it might be better to focus on what we could enjoy than on complaining its shortcomings. But some house rules could be helpful.
I will not follow the old Barbarossa, as it was an extremely poor plan, so poor that I would have Halder arrested and executed if I were the Germany military leader. People should read David Stahel’s book ‘operation Barbarossa and Germany’s defeat in the east’ to see how poor and irresponsible Halder was, if they insist players should follow the old Barbarossa.

Game setting:
(1)1941-1945 full campaign (I would do a probably much better opening than normal Lvov, so full Campaign give Soviet side more strategy space)
(2)Full FOW
(3)Lock HQ support
(4) Non-random Weather
(5) Regular Blizzard
(6) Soviet player bonus: attack+1
Note: I want us to agree to play this game out on 1.08.03 version, as 1.08.05 version would undergo big change, so it will sway the balance if we upgrade to the new version in the middle of our game, which is often unfair. It is a PBEM game, and one could always install two versions on a computer, so that should not be a problem.

House rules:
(1)No Paratrooper dropping
Reason: too powerful for this game
(2)Ground unit bombing could only be made against hexes which are to be ground attacked in the current turn. In other words, if a hex would not be ground attacked in that turn, then it should not be Ground unit bombed
Reason: a) it is another precaution to protect HQ, as it turns out that even if a HQ is stacking with a ground combat unit, it is still suffering huge loss when the hex being bombed, often 100 guns and 3000 men in one attack; b) the ground unit bombing is indeed quite useless if the unit was not to be ground attacked that turn
(3)No bombing on HQs. There is only one situation that a hex containing a HQ could be bombed: the HQ is stacking with a ground unit and the unit is to be ground-attacked in the same turn.
Reason: To protect leaders and SUs
(4)No airfield bombing after T1.
Reason: a) The air war mode in this game is not good (I believe that if there is a Air War game using the WITE air war modes, it won’t sell); b) in real war, there is no evidence that airfield attack works except for the sudden attack on 1941.06.22; c) the strong point of WITE is the ground war, so let us focus on it.
(5)No more than 3 bombing at each city & port per turn.
(6)Airbases (including German army airbase) could only move at the end of each turn, after all air missions have been finished.
Reason: currently, the airbases are serving as land aircraft-carrier which is a fancy even Today. In reality, an airbase needs 1-2 weeks to be established before it could function properly.
(7)Airbase could not enter newly conquer & converted hexes in the current turn. It could only enter those hexes which are already under friendly controlled at the start of one’s turn. If a pocket has been open in the turn, then the airbase could move into the pocket that turn.
(8)Air drop must be made to at least 1 hex away from the staging airbase.
Reason: it is crazy to see planes take off and drop cargo into the same hex.
(9)After a unit received air-drop supply & fuel, it must stop moving that turn.
Reason: a strategy air-supply mission requires a whole week to administer.
(10)HQ build up must be made within 20 Mp range of rail head, and the HQ must not move in the whole turn.
Reason: a) an HQ build up requires a whole week to administer; b) current HQ build up rule is too powerful.
(11)No more than 3 ground unit bombing against one hex per turn
(12)No more than 5 ground attacks against one hex per turn
(13)No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943; in addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea.
(14)No soviet bombing Polesti before 1943.
Reason: No historically possible.

Since the HQ build up house rules and airbase house rules will slow down the German advance, also, we have the 1:1=2:1 rules and regular Blizzard, therefore, I recommend my opponent to set soviet transport level at 50%-75% to make the game more balance, it is up to you to decide.

I prefer to play against a careful and patient player, who would keep playing the game to the end. My opening would be quite powerful, and probably only tough player could handle it, so beware of it. It might be better than the one I did against Marquo.

I worked at week days and need to spend some time with my family at week end, so I could only play the game at my leisure time, which I have a time budget from my wife. I could play at least 2 turns per week.

Anyone who is interested, please answer formally to this thread and state whether you agree or disagree of the terms (I would only consider those reply formally to this thread). We could discuss the house rules.

It is a long thread, so thanks for your patience to read it; it is a careful and patient player who I am looking for, after all, :)

I am looking forward to defending Berlin, so I would only consider a good player, also someone who is willing to defend a very challenging opening.
Edit: Saper pick up the game, so I will play against him. Thread closed.

< Message edited by mktours -- 6/11/2015 3:06:48 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/10/2015 7:42:38 PM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		Hi mktours,

The airbase, and air supply rules are the hardest things in WITE, what was never really corrected. Your AAR, as german was the most controversial AAR what I ever seen. No offense, you played perfect, maximize the game rules, and won, but your frontlines, and panzer attack was unconventional, based on game rules, not on WW2 simulation, why I love plaing WITE.

I'm thinking to give you a good game, but I'm scared about the results, because you are good in finding the best solutions based on game rules, but far from realities, why I love this game.

So here is my suggested house rules:


German disadvantage:

1. Do not use air supply during the first 24 turn (air supply is the most critical point of the game, and since there is no airfield, like in WITW, what need to rebuild for use, and as you said they (airbases) works as land aircraft-carrier. And there was no real air transport a operation on eastern front before Demjansky pocket).
2. HQBU only if the HQ stay on rail line, and its within 5 hex far from the supply line. The way (HQ and supply line) must be connected by continious rail, what simulate the roads (supply truks can’t pass mountain, or other terrain without rail line printed on hex). No more then two HQBU/turn/supply source, what simulate the massive panzer concentration, but only one rail line trouble (that rule only effects on first 22 turn, after the germans rebuild the rail system, and they switched to the soviet train gauge, building new type of train/wagon, etc...)
3. Admin points set to 75-50 %. Unit's need just a few AP to change their HQ-s, starting german leaders are good, so german player has tons of admin points creating forts, and HQBU.


Soviet disadvantage

1. No para dropp at all.
2. No airfield bombing after T01
3. No bomb Ploesti before 43
4. Transport level set to 50 %
5. No naval invasion outside the 1939 Soviet borders, and only naval brigades can be used as landing forces. I disagree with the november rule, because the first naval invasion was launched after the germans entered on Crimean peninsula on october/november.


Other house rules:
1. No more than 3 bombing at each hex per turn, including city/port, unit bombing... do not bomb HQ, and HQ stacked with ground unit, except the unit will be ground attacked on current turn.
2. No more then 3 ground attack a single hex.
3. Mild winter
4. Fortification levels set to 50 %. It's to easy to activate reserve units, so in mid game, the frontlines will be based on WW1, not WW2.
5. Random weather (hardly for german side on first 17 turn, but great favor on 42)

With those rules the soviet +1 attack seems to be heavy, so could be forget to.


So here is my offer in long term game.

Regards,
Viktor

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/10/2015 11:51:00 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Hi, Viktor
Thanks very much for your comments, it is long, and I appreciate it.
Most of the criticize on my game against Marquo is not justified, there are some people claimed that I don’t care about history, but that is obvious wrong, anyone who wants to play WITE is a military fan and history fan, I am a good reader of military books and I read many.
I believe that good players will have good insight about why I play my game against Marquo in that way. That is no offense to Marquo as I will play the same way against anyone. There is nothing wrong to “played perfect, maximize the game rules, finding the best solutions based on game rules”; indeed, that is what I am expecting my opponent to do. In playing games, I look to learning something from others to benefit my real life. To me, the more creative and innovative my opponent is, the better. I like history, but I don’t play just to “simulate history”, I view it as an exercise of creativity too.
Regarding history, people are easy to hold different opinions, there are many ‘what if’ books, so the controversial never ends.
It is obvious that we see things very differently, that is fine as people are fine to hold different opinions and preference. But we are not likely to have a good game between us.
I see what you are thinking in your house rules and understand why. But since we see things very differently in general, I won’t accept your offer.
Thanks very much for your comments and your offer for the game.
Kind regards,
Tours


< Message edited by mktours -- 6/11/2015 12:51:27 AM >

(in reply to Callistrid)
Post #: 3
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/11/2015 4:10:35 AM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		I am reading through Stahel's book for a second time as well. Extremely interesting work that WiTE has a unique way of bringing to life. Pelton needs to read it to lose his misconceptions.

I'll give it a go if you accept as I'm looking for a second simultaneous game as SHC (current one seems to have slowed down considerably and need to get my fix in). I very admittedly don't have an abundance of experience as SHC having played as GHC and only recently getting back into the game after a few years, but with 30 years of board and other wargaming experience, I'm sure I'll be fine. In looking at the opening you've used I personally find it to be a challenge to try to counter it (or whatever variation of it you use). Further, I personally do not believe the game can be one on turn 2 regardless of where the German is at that point. It's a LONG game. I can easily do 2 turns a week.

The House rules we'd need to discuss. First, there are just too damn many of them. I want to play the game and play it however I want to play it (as do you apparently), not have to look up a checklist of 20 things not to do. So it needs to be whittled down. Second, if the Germans are going to exploit air supply which is far worse than HQBU (and why wouldn't they, it's part of the current game build), then the Soviets should be free to counter it by any and all means necessary including bombing German bomber and transport air bases and recon bases. One good turn deserves another and if air supply is in use then anything goes as far as I'm concerned. Next, there is no need for soviet +1 and we can even do mild blizzard. I won't agree to reduce Soviet transport. If you're pressing east that fast, factories need to be moved and soviets will need every bit of capacity to move them and troops in order to be able to survive. So generally speaking there are a few house rules on your list that I'll agree to, but in general only very few of them. You do what you want, I'll do what I want.

I will play the game through to the end be it early in the war or in Germany late war. If you're interested, let me know.

Best,

Matt


< Message edited by mattp -- 6/11/2015 5:14:59 AM >

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 4
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/11/2015 5:08:10 AM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Hi, Matt
Thanks for the comments. Yes, Stahel’s books are fascinating and I enjoy reading them.
I agree with you that the game is a long game, and whatever GHC do in the first 2 turns, it simply could not win the game by T2. Whenever there is a challenge, there are answers; it is always up to players to respond. We share the same opinions here.
All the house rules I listed have good reasons, at least to me. If you are having different ideas about them, we could have a discussion. You are welcome to give you points and I would explain mine.
The air war mode is extremely poor, I could do an excellent job to bomb GHC airfields when I play soviet side, yet I feel disgusted about the mode, it is something which you feel not good even though you could do well, because you are doing very dumb thing. I like the ground war in WITE, not the air war of it; that is why I recommend that we ignore it. If someone could prove to me that the air war mode in WITE is desirable, I would be much appreciate.
I like to play with 1:1=2:1 rule, and old blizzard. That is personal preference and I will insist in my games. As to transport level, that is up to my opponent to decide; if they want a more balance game, they could tone it down, if they want big advantage, that is ok with me, as I like challenge.
Although the house rules list looks long, they are very basic facts and easy to remember, I think. I erase the reasons, so you could have a better look at the list:
(1)No Paratrooper dropping
(2)Ground unit bombing could only be made against hexes which are to be ground attacked in the current turn. In other words, if a hex would not be ground attacked in that turn, then it should not be Ground unit bombed
(3)No bombing on HQs. There is only one situation that a hex containing a HQ could be bombed: the HQ is stacking with a ground unit and the unit is to be ground-attacked in the same turn.
(4)No airfield bombing after T1.
(5)No more than 3 bombing at each city & port per turn.
(6)Airbases (including German army airbase) could only move at the end of each turn, after all air missions have been finished.
(7)Airbase could not enter newly conquer & converted hexes in the current turn. It could only enter those hexes which are already under friendly controlled at the start of one’s turn. If a pocket has been open in the turn, then the airbase could move into the pocket that turn.
(8)Air drop must be made to at least 1 hex away from the staging airbase.
(9)After a unit received air-drop supply & fuel, it must stop moving that turn.
(10)HQ build up must be made within 20 Mp range of rail head, and the HQ must not move in the whole turn.
(11)No more than 3 ground unit bombing against one hex per turn
(12)No more than 5 ground attacks against one hex per turn
(13)No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943; in addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea.
(14)No soviet bombing Polesti before 1943.
Best regards,
Tours

< Message edited by mktours -- 6/11/2015 6:13:09 AM >

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 5
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/11/2015 2:04:33 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Saper informed me that he will pick up the game. So I will play this game with him.
Thread closed.

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 6
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/11/2015 2:25:33 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Please do post an AAR of the game as I'm very curious to see this one and it sounds like an excellent match up.

I know you have an opponent, but here are my thoughts on the house rules...

(1)No Paratrooper dropping

I agree it can be powerful, but it's fun. I agree they shouldn't be used for suicide, break rail lines missions and I don't use them for that. I do however use them to drop immediately behind the German lines in order to control retreat directions. Assaulting the Germans in winter is difficult because they simply retreat, it's rare (at least with Mild Blizzard) to rout anyone. Para drops can help control direction of retreat and allow to open up a break through.


(2)Ground unit bombing could only be made against hexes which are to be ground attacked in the current turn. In other words, if a hex would not be ground attacked in that turn, then it should not be Ground unit bombed


I don't necessarily agree with this one. With so many bombing restrictions it makes one wonder what to do with all those soviet bombers....


(3)No bombing on HQs. There is only one situation that a hex containing a HQ could be bombed: the HQ is stacking with a ground unit and the unit is to be ground-attacked in the same turn.


I agree with this rule.


(4)No airfield bombing after T1.


See my previous comments re: air supply. Further, flying air supremacy type missions where you go to bomb an airfield and remove bombers from the mission and only send fighters is interesting. Keeps the german planes constantly flying and constantly under attrition. I do agree that SPAM bombing helpful advanced recon bases is cheesy, but it does work. It's difficult for me to feel guilty as Russian in '41. But in general, this is a rule I could agree on because I do see the reasons for it.


(5)No more than 3 bombing at each city & port per turn.


I could agree to this as well. Of course one could just make each mission that much larger....


(6)Airbases (including German army airbase) could only move at the end of each turn, after all air missions have been finished.


This one I would have trouble agreeing with but not for the reasons you think. It's one of practicality. Russian counter density is often so high that moving airfields while in movement is sometimes an expedient of just getting them out of the way. I can see more practical reasons for the rule though, but I would find it difficult to follow this rule in practive for the reason above.


(7)Airbase could not enter newly conquer & converted hexes in the current turn. It could only enter those hexes which are already under friendly controlled at the start of one’s turn. If a pocket has been open in the turn, then the airbase could move into the pocket that turn.


I could agree to this.


(8)Air drop must be made to at least 1 hex away from the staging airbase.

I could agree to this, but I seem to be missing what exploit this is preventing?


(9)After a unit received air-drop supply & fuel, it must stop moving that turn.


I love this one of course as Russians. Often when you cut off the spearheads they get drop drop drop and fight their way out. I wonder if also having a rule like the bombinb of cities and towns of no more than 3 air supply drops to a single hex would also be fair?


(10)HQ build up must be made within 20 Mp range of rail head, and the HQ must not move in the whole turn.


This one just seems to create extra work to me.


(11)No more than 3 ground unit bombing against one hex per turn

Can agree.


(12)No more than 5 ground attacks against one hex per turn

Can Agree

(13)No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943; in addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea.

Can Agree

(14)No soviet bombing Polesti before 1943.

Waste of time, so can agree.


So those are my thoughts on them. I guess with hindsight I can agree to more than I thought I would....

Enjoy the game!

Matt

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 7
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/13/2015 2:19:55 AM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Matt,
Thanks for providing your thoughts, below is some explainations.
(1)No Paratrooper dropping
“I agree it can be powerful, but it's fun. I agree they shouldn't be used for suicide, break rail lines missions and I don't use them for that. I do however use them to drop immediately behind the German lines in order to control retreat directions. Assaulting the Germans in winter is difficult because they simply retreat, it's rare (at least with Mild Blizzard) to rout anyone. Para drops can help control direction of retreat and allow to open up a break through.”
That is why paratroopers so powerful in this game, I agree it is fun, but too powerful, if the hex is 1000meters wide, then it will be fine.

(2)Ground unit bombing could only be made against hexes which are to be ground attacked in the current turn. In other words, if a hex would not be ground attacked in that turn, then it should not be Ground unit bombed
“ I don't necessarily agree with this one. With so many bombing restrictions it makes one wonder what to do with all those soviet bombers.... “
If the ground unit is not to be ground attacked, it is useless to bomb it, 100 bombers could only kill 30 men and 1 gun ( sometimes no gun killing at all), why bother to do it? Bombing cause disruption, but they recover if you don’t ground attack the unit. In WW2, the bomber could not just go the field and do whatever they like, mostly they need ground unit to provide guide, if they just fly to a 10 miles wide hex and without the recon from ground units, they could kill nothing.
The interdiction in the game is good, that is more reflecting the reality. Marching units are more vulnerable to air force.

(4)No airfield bombing after T1.
“ See my previous comments re: air supply. Further, flying air supremacy type missions where you go to bomb an airfield and remove bombers from the mission and only send fighters is interesting. Keeps the german planes constantly flying and constantly under attrition. I do agree that SPAM bombing helpful advanced recon bases is cheesy, but it does work. It's difficult for me to feel guilty as Russian in '41. But in general, this is a rule I could agree on because I do see the reasons for it. “
The matter is the air war mode is simply too bad. There is no evidence that air field bombing works after the sudden attack in 1941.06.22. If my knowledge is correct, such things never happened in the east front after 1941.06.22. To bomb an alerted airfield in WW2 is not easy (suicide indeed), that is why both sides didn’t do that in history. A good example is Stalingrad, did Soviet bomb the air field there? The best suitable target, yet soviet can’t do it. In this game, you could simply wipe out any airfield if you like to. Real air fighting is far from that way. Fly 100 bombers to bomb an alerted airfield and you see 0 returns in real war in east front. Of course in west front in 1944 it is another story.
(6)Airbases (including German army airbase) could only move at the end of each turn, after all air missions have been finished.
“ This one I would have trouble agreeing with but not for the reasons you think. It's one of practicality. Russian counter density is often so high that moving airfields while in movement is sometimes an expedient of just getting them out of the way. I can see more practical reasons for the rule though, but I would find it difficult to follow this rule in practive for the reason above. “
A good example is T1, which only lasts 4 days, is it possible for the engineers to rush into the chaos and build airstrips somewhere in less than 4 days, on which the planes could then take off to combat presumable in day2, in some case even day1? That sounds as if the planes are on land aircraft-carrier which could move around freely. Technically it is not possible. That is a flaw of wite, which needs to be corrected.

Thanks for the comments and being interested in this game. I might do a brief AAR later to report the opening and what happen in 1941, if I have time. Currently I would have to focus on the game playing first as it is a challenging game to me, and demands a lot of thinking.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 8
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 12:29:58 PM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		I really curious about mktours opening. It's possible to post that and see what's going on?

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 9
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 4:38:10 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		I've changed my mind on the air bombing. Been playing a lot lately and you can wipe out the Luftwaffe completely by October. So we now play with 3 Total Airbase attacks per turn. Enough to keep it interesting, not enough to do any real damage.

As for bombing ground units, if it only kills 20 men and 2 guns it should be up to me if that's worth it. Study 1941 more, the Russians were constantly bombing German ground forces. If you feel interdiction captures this well, that's your prerogative of course. Really, it's not something I do very much in any case, so I don't see a need to arbitrarily remove it from the game.

Callistrid, you can see his opening in a previous AAR, but I don't have the link. I'm sure someone can post it for you. It's very interesting and seems to place a premium on getting east as quickly as possible. Going from memory here, but in the north there is a Turn 2 drive for Velikie Luki and in the south a Turn 2 drive for Kiev. However, having played the SHC many times now, I'd more than welcome him to try...MKTours if you ever have a free hour or three, I'd love to just play the first 2 turns if only to test my defensive opening against your offensive opening. No rush or anything, but if you get bored sometime and have a PBEM save of the end of your Turn 1 you could send it over just for fun and only play out the relevant parts (i.e. turn 2 drive for Luki/Kiev or alternative based on SHC Turn 1).

I too would love to see some screens of your game if you get the time. Should be very interesting....




(in reply to Callistrid)
Post #: 10
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 6:49:24 PM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		I'm curious about the current game, with +1 soviet bonus, and severe blizzard, plus how works mktours house rules.

Mattp, you are ours opponent? As I know sapper222 is.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 11
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 8:01:25 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		I am who's opponent? Just to clarify, no, I'm not playing against MKTours. I'm just curious to see if my standard SHC defense on Turn 1 would stop his opening....I personally don't believe it's possible to achieve his T2 objectives. I know you're curious about his current game, as am I, but his opening is his opening and you can see his T1 and T2 in his previous AAR....

(in reply to Callistrid)
Post #: 12
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 8:30:57 PM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		The last AAR strategy can't work with the current rules, and patch.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 13
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 6/30/2015 8:37:45 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		I'll let MKTours comment on this as I'm not sure that's true.

(in reply to Callistrid)
Post #: 14
RE: Looking for a good soviet player for PBEM game on 1... - 7/1/2015 1:51:23 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks for being interested in the game, I have created an AAR.
The air war mode is not good, that is why I don't like to play it.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 15
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