ASuW without ASMs

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ASuW without ASMs - 6/23/2015 11:14:02 PM

Tarawa565

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline

So, what are your guy's strategies (working ones...) for ASuW against ships without the benefit of long range ASMs?

Specifically, I'm looking at German Tornados attacking modern Russian ships with potent air defenses.

The ASuW loads are:

Mk82 AIR at 200 ft.
Mk83 from 1000 feet - no drag parachutes.
HARMs, but I need to get them to light up their radars first.
AGM-65 Mavericks at 200 ft (8nm range)
LJDAM, needs a minimum of 10000 feet and has to lase the target (12nm range)

Regardless, it seems pretty typical of a load you might have to deal with. I seem to suffer a fair amount of losses when I'm doing this. A full Mk82 AIR strike backed up by AGM-88s resulted (in a TF of ~10 Russian ships), sinking 3 and losing 9 Tornados. $$ wise it works out in my favor, but it still seems like a pretty high loss rate.

Definitely would love suggestions!

Post #: 1

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/23/2015 11:29:02 PM

Primarchx

Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline

A combination of HARM and Maverick, working closely. Come in low & fast and start firing Harms in small numbers as soon as radars start coming up. Hopefully they concentrate on downing the HARMs, and maybe you even get a hit or two in, and during the chaos, allow your Maverick a/c to get into range.

(in reply to Tarawa565)

Post #: 2

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/24/2015 2:43:57 AM

FlyingBear

Posts: 133
Joined: 7/12/2014
Status: offline

Strategy for that mission?

This looks about right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhTv2kSBMhc

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 3

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/24/2015 7:52:10 AM

p1t1o

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/6/2015
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Do HARMs target and disable radars on attacked ships? Does it degrade their defenses?

(in reply to FlyingBear)

Post #: 4

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/24/2015 9:08:54 AM

wild_Willie2

Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline

HARM's target radars that are needed to target your attack AC. If you destroy these radars then air defenses are significantly degraded. Also, HARM's carry a warhead that is big enough to structurally damage a target and multiple hits CAN sink a ship.

A combined minimum altitude Maverick and HARM attack forces targets to turn on their radar to defend them self against the Mavericks and then the HARM shooters can target the active radars. You will loose planes, but you will certainly cause damage to your targets.

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 6/24/2015 10:11:42 AM >

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(in reply to p1t1o)

Post #: 5

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/24/2015 12:46:44 PM

SeaQueen

Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline

Well... first thing to recognize, this is not the best way to attack anything with substantial air defenses. Most likely you're going to take some losses, because with an ASCM they'd be shooting at the missiles (and shooting some down). Now they'll be shooting at you.

More standoff range is generally better, which would lead me to favor LJDAM, but only after I'd reduced their air defenses using as large a HARM raid as I could muster. Target their fire control radars. In a second way, drop the bombs and try to sink them or put the out of action.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarawa565

So, what are your guy's strategies (working ones...) for ASuW against ships without the benefit of long range ASMs?

Specifically, I'm looking at German Tornados attacking modern Russian ships with potent air defenses.

The ASuW loads are:

Mk82 AIR at 200 ft.
Mk83 from 1000 feet - no drag parachutes.
HARMs, but I need to get them to light up their radars first.
AGM-65 Mavericks at 200 ft (8nm range)
LJDAM, needs a minimum of 10000 feet and has to lase the target (12nm range)

Regardless, it seems pretty typical of a load you might have to deal with. I seem to suffer a fair amount of losses when I'm doing this. A full Mk82 AIR strike backed up by AGM-88s resulted (in a TF of ~10 Russian ships), sinking 3 and losing 9 Tornados. $$ wise it works out in my favor, but it still seems like a pretty high loss rate.

Definitely would love suggestions!

(in reply to Tarawa565)

Post #: 6

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/25/2015 3:17:50 AM

FlyingBear

Posts: 133
Joined: 7/12/2014
Status: offline

What I was getting at is: Don't do it that way. If your aircraft do not have long range anti-ship missiles, do not use them against modern warships. Solve your operational needs by some other available means.

In the German case, I would call on the Navy instead. A quick Wikipedia scan suggests 28 x Harpoon, 20 x RBS15 and 28 x Exocet launchers on currently serving surface ships, and HARM + a few of those seems like a much better approach than HARM + LJDAM or HARM + Maverick.

Mine fields protected by navy anti-ship missiles is another choice, I don't think Russia puts Kashtan on their mine sweepers so they would be easy pickings if they actually show up. Meaning they won't show up, meaning your mines will be effective, meaning the surface fleet will not show up either. Problem solved, whatever the original problem was.

(in reply to SeaQueen)

Post #: 7

RE: ASuW without ASMs - 6/25/2015 4:06:23 AM

Tarawa565

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline

Thanks for the perspectives, guys! Yeah, the multi-spectrum aspect of it is something I need to think about more.

Definitely applicable in the USN with our reliance on air for ASuW. (South China Sea Clash scenario anyone?)

Still, it seems plausible that from the Russian end there would be a focus on eliminating those few ASuW equipped surface vessels - leaving only submarines and air to do the job.

I was curious for a scenario I was building/updating. The way I envisioned it, originally, was AS34 Kormoran ASM and HARM armed tornados attacking the Russian SAG. However, further research revealed that the ASM had been retired without replacement, but the air wing was still tasked with ASuW as a mission.

Plus, I think it's interesting to look at that worst case scenario. How does the USN do ASuW without aircraft? How do the Germans do it without ships? Definitely opens the mind to more exploratory tactics.

(in reply to FlyingBear)

Post #: 8