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Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 3:03:44 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Allies vs Human in PBEM

May 42 my opponent takes Port Moresby after a modest struggle

I set up some good bases in Townseville, Cairns and Cooktown, main B-17 base is currently Towns

I have 2 questions:
What do I want to do to maximize the load/hitting power of the B-17s, heres what I have so far:
I have built up Towns to Airfield size 8
I have lots of support
I have all B17s at Towns set to same Bomber HQ and I have the Bomber HQ at Townsville w the planning target set to PM
anything i am forgetting here?


What options would I have to increase B17 survival rate now that he has PM set up as a base I am facing some Zero CAP, should I try night bombing? I always bomb at 10k should I try 20k? If I am flying in without Escorts what can I do to reduce losses?

Thanks
PS I tried to search on B17 in the forums and my search only went back 1 year, does anyone know if there is some hidden setting that can adjust how far back in time a search can go?

< Message edited by godochaos -- 7/9/2015 4:04:31 PM >
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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 3:35:42 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		It's hard to give advise without the full picture. Do you have any bases within fighter range? Milne Bay? Horn Island? Etc.? If you have CVs also then you would do sweeps the day that you want to raid with the B-17s. Don't try to "coordinate" as that might prove a real problem, just do sweeps to keep the Japs occupied (if you have CVs available you might try to coordinate by putting the CVs in the path of the B-17s so that the bombers fly over the CVs, of course this is dangerous for the CVs, but what the heck!). Also what is your target? If you shoot for the airfield, then you can interdict the Japs at their source. Also you might want to try 9K as I'm not sure if there is a level that jumps at 10k concerning the dice roll. I believe the Jap 25mm AA guns have a range of 8K, but not sure. Check that out. But close the airfields first then keep them closed.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 4:03:11 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		You don't need to have the HQa planning for any particular target. I also don't think it matters which HQa you have, just that you have one. You do want them all assigned to the same command for maximum coordination, however.

If you are taking losses from flak, then you do need to raise altitude. This lowers your accuracy, particularly in the early war with the relatively poor USAAF bomber pilots. If you are not taking losses to flak, you can lower your altitude. I suggest looking up the ceilings of the Japanese AA guns in Tracker or the in-game database. Most of the guns you will face cannot even reach 8000 feet. Some have ceilings of 8000. Most are 7000 or less. So set your altitude accordingly.

If you want to fight off the CAP, then you need to sweep the base in addition to bombing. You can only do this from Townsville with P-38s, if at all. I suggest building up Cairns, Cooktown, Portland Roads, and maybe even Coen. You will need lots of fighters for such an effort as you will need to bring in supply by sea - it does not flow very well to Coen and Portland Roads.

Night bombing is useful.

(in reply to godochaos)
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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 4:04:23 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		As for searches going back 1 year... at the top of each little forum, you can see a dropdown menu for "display topics from past X days". Set this to "All topics" before searching.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 4:05:02 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yes let me clarify:

PM Airfield is prime target
My CV's raided PM once but I cannot hang out nearby due to KB

I own Horn but it has only the original troops. I have Milne Bay but its airbase is not developed, I have Buna and it might be AF 1, its improving but he may decide to go after it- it has the PM survivors

I have some P38s which will hopefully be at Brisbane within a few weeks and could fly from Cooktown in theory, but there experience level is not impressive

You've given me an idea, I could jump some fighters into Buna and then sweep PM on the same turn I bomb.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 4:12:21 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Sounds like a plan. I would try to get engineers into Milne Bay as well...if you can keep that base, then PM is crippled especially when you build an AF on that base. But for the immediate future you need to do sweeps. Try running the CVs through the area once while bombing, you might get two days of sweeps out of that and hopefully do some real damage to the airfield at PM. I would drop the bombers down to 9K. Lokasenna suggests night bombing which is a good suggestion provided that you have enough bombers (don't have to be B-17s) to spare as this will chew up air assets if he decides to put up night fighters (doubtful but he might) and if not, MIGHT get a hit or two on the airfield. The idea is to get as many Jap fighters out of the way so the B-17s can do what they do best.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 5:15:52 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

Yes let me clarify:

PM Airfield is prime target
My CV's raided PM once but I cannot hang out nearby due to KB

I own Horn but it has only the original troops. I have Milne Bay but its airbase is not developed, I have Buna and it might be AF 1, its improving but he may decide to go after it- it has the PM survivors

I have some P38s which will hopefully be at Brisbane within a few weeks and could fly from Cooktown in theory, but there experience level is not impressive

You've given me an idea, I could jump some fighters into Buna and then sweep PM on the same turn I bomb.



You can put different pilots in the P-38 squadron. They should have your best pilots anyway, as they are your only air superiority platform for a very long time - until you get P-47s and, to a lesser extent, Corsairs.

Buna will fall. I wouldn't build the airfield there. Build forts, or build nothing to save supplies. I would probably just build forts.

Milne Bay - same deal. Build forts or build nothing. Unless you have plans to enable a large landing of troops and supplies, such that these bases can be self-sufficient in terms of CAP and protection, it is not worth developing them as you will simply be handing a working base over to your opponent when he takes them. It is still very early yet. He is not done expanding.

Try to fly some more troops, including engineers, to Horn Island if you can. It should be part of the Australian restricted command, so you should be able to fly almost any Australian unit there. Build forts there. With him controlling Moresby, you probably won't be able to supply the island except with a trickle (via sub or PBY/transport supply missions), so don't try to fly air missions out of it. It is an atoll, so forts and troop numbers (and supply) are you most important pieces of defense. Forts are even more important because the terrain of the island is Clear, which means lots of bomber casualties. Try to fly in some AA if he starts bombing it - but not too much, as it's still a vulnerable piece of real estate. Just less vulnerable than Buna/Milne.

I know you started this talking about how to bomb out Moresby, but these are all tangentially related . Bombing Moresby should be part of a larger action plan in the theater - what are you trying to accomplish, and why? I think trying to keep the airfield damaged or dangerous for him is a valid goal.

If you bomb at night, go in at 2000 feet.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 5:22:58 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

Night bombing is useful.




quote:

If you bomb at night, go in at 2000 feet.


This I can verify this.

Allied 4E's at night flying at 2000ft get good results. What's more is that flak and balloons don't seem to be as effective at night compared to day, so you can get moderate results for limited risk.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 5:37:28 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		But it is "Gamie" in that I don't think B-17s would be happy flying at night at 2K IMHO. I don't know, but I doubt that there were missions at this altitude in the actual war (over land?). But I'm not sure. It seems to me to be outside the "realism" parameters. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, so have at it!!!!

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 5:51:05 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

But it is "Gamie" in that I don't think B-17s would be happy flying at night at 2K IMHO. I don't know, but I doubt that there were missions at this altitude in the actual war (over land?). But I'm not sure. It seems to me to be outside the "realism" parameters. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, so have at it!!!!


The use of 4E's against shipping targets at extremely low altitude was common. Against a stationary target? Why not?

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 6:15:50 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		This is great info guys

I think I will try some night bombing and see how it goes, when i get my P38s set up I will try to sweep from Cook
I will also try a sweep from Buna(I agree with your pragmatic strategy Loksenna, I dont see Buna living for too long, probably not Milne either)

I think my opponent and I have a 10k limit agreement on 4e, but i need to check with him. It may be that the rule we agreed to was no naval for 4e below 10k

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 6:30:08 PM   
Yaab


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Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		godochaos, remember there is a check for bomber durability and morale, when bombers are taking damage from fighters. If you want your bombers to get through CAP and not turn away in the process, try to fly your B-17 with 99 morale crews.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 6:37:00 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Yes mind_messing, that's called "Skip Bombing" but I don't recall B-17s ever doing it. This was mainly a medium bomber tactic (although I've heard of B-24s trying it).

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 6:49:38 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Yes mind_messing, that's called "Skip Bombing" but I don't recall B-17s ever doing it. This was mainly a medium bomber tactic (although I've heard of B-24s trying it).

The initial tests were done with a B-17E. They were very successful , but not considered to be the best use of a B-17. Since "heavies" could do long range bombing , and the 5th AF never had enough , and skip bombing was usually done with a lighter load and at a shorter range , attack and mediums were considered to be a more efficient type aircraft to use for Skip bombing.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 6:49:48 PM   
mind_messing

 

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Yes mind_messing, that's called "Skip Bombing" but I don't recall B-17s ever doing it. This was mainly a medium bomber tactic (although I've heard of B-24s trying it).


https://books.google.nl/books?id=ajQgDfPxKYYC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=b-17+skip+bombing&source=bl&ots=z4vxnndGBK&sig=p1j-gbtPrbXUx8OM2rW2DwEHJDM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBmoVChMIj5Tur9vOxgIVTFgUCh19FwK2#v=onepage&q=b-17%20skip%20bombing&f=false

Skip bombing. Even at night.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 9:59:54 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Ok thanks Steve, learn something new every day! Hal

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/9/2015 11:58:23 PM   
Disco Duck


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/16/2004
From: San Antonio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Yes mind_messing, that's called "Skip Bombing" but I don't recall B-17s ever doing it. This was mainly a medium bomber tactic (although I've heard of B-24s trying it).



Here is a video of a B-17 doing practice runs.

http://b17blackjack.com/trailer/mov/skip-bomb.html

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/10/2015 12:07:56 AM   
Disco Duck


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/16/2004
From: San Antonio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

But it is "Gamie" in that I don't think B-17s would be happy flying at night at 2K IMHO. I don't know, but I doubt that there were missions at this altitude in the actual war (over land?). But I'm not sure. It seems to me to be outside the "realism" parameters. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, so have at it!!!!


The use of 4E's against shipping targets at extremely low altitude was common. Against a stationary target? Why not?


I think it has to do with the explosion radius. With skip bombing the bomb was actually behind the plane with a delay fuse. Just a quick look on the web shows a blast radius of 1.5 KM to 3,000 feet.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/10/2015 5:33:13 AM   
Dragoastro

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 3/11/2015
Status: offline 		Note that you cannot sweep from size 1 airfields. Also I suggest getting the best leaders into your B17 squadrons (high Air skill, high aggression, secondary high leadership). Send all a/c at the same target and altitude on a given day, then check the next day for the fatigue and morale of each squadron. Use Standdiwn the next day for any squadron w less than 99 morale or > maybe 9 fatigue. Same for supporting fighter squadrons. Sweeps and LRCap hurt fighters quickly. LRCap may be better than sweeps, ymmv. Also, from Buna, basic CAP may leak into PM. Recon PM to increase bomb effectiveness. Send bombardment tf to PM, then bomb the next day, this works very well. Put some extra pilots in all squadrons, I usually have 1.5 pilots per airframe. Not sure if the leader of the HQ matters, but high air and aggress. may help w coordination. If you escort vice sweep w P38s, make sure they are at the same alt as the bombers. They won't kill many fighters, but they will help the bombers get through to the target. Watch the weather, and bomb on better days, rest on bad days. My night bombing success is very limited, but good moonlight helps alot. Maybe add some long range 2e's for night bombing, Hudson III LR comes to mind. Good luck.

Drago

< Message edited by Dragoastro -- 7/10/2015 6:34:30 AM >

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/10/2015 3:59:32 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Size 6 does not equal point 6 font .

In any case, I don't stand down my units if Morale is less than 99, nor if fatigue is over 9. You do want to keep an eye on those numbers, but just know that lower morale means worse performance (or none because they refused to fly at all) and higher fatigue means more losses to ops (and maybe worse performance/survivability in combat, I don't rightly know).

I want to say I have flown sweeps from a level 1 airfield, but that may be incorrect. I remember thinking "Well that airstrip is only level 1, so maybe they won't sweep" when I set some turn orders a few weeks ago... can't recall if it went off or not, but I think it did?

As for night bombing, you really need them to be dropping as many bombs as possible. With the smaller 2E bombers, such as the Hudson, they just don't carry enough bombs. The IJAAF bombers don't either. You need 6 or more bombs falling from the plane to get reliable results.

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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/11/2015 3:50:47 PM   
wneumann


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quote:


Allies vs Human in PBEM May 42 my opponent takes Port Moresby after a modest struggle I set up some good bases in Townseville, Cairns and Cooktown, main B-17 base is currently Towns I have 2 questions: What do I want to do to maximize the load/hitting power of the B-17s, heres what I have so far: I have built up Towns to Airfield size 8 I have lots of support I have all B17s at Towns set to same Bomber HQ and I have the Bomber HQ at Townsville w the planning target set to PM anything i am forgetting here? What options would I have to increase B17 survival rate now that he has PM set up as a base I am facing some Zero CAP, should I try night bombing? I always bomb at 10k should I try 20k? If I am flying in without Escorts what can I do to reduce losses? Thanks PS I tried to search on B17 in the forums and my search only went back 1 year, does anyone know if there is some hidden setting that can adjust how far back in time a search can go?


I may be repeating other posts so bear with me.

Bases... Expand airfield sizes at all major coastal bases in NE Australia to maximum. Townsville, Charters Towers, Cooktown and Portland Roads all expand to size 9, Cairns to size 8. You'll need the airfield capacity for any kind of medium to large-scale air campaign over Port Moresby and/or eastern New Guinea. LCU reinforcements to SW Pacific theatre in 1942 include many construction engineer and air base force units, get them to Australia and push as many of these up north as possible along with copious amounts of supply. If done aggressively enough, all the previously mentioned airfields in NE Australia can be fully expanded and ready to go by early-1943. It should be noted that the coastal rail line in NE Australia ends at Cairns, this affecting movement of LCU and supply into Cooktown and Portland Roads. Ports at these two bases should also be expanded. While the secondary road network allows movement of supply and LCU into Portland Roads and Cooktown, sea transport into these bases is useful plus supply can also be airlifted from Townsville and Cairns into both Cooktown and Portland Roads (once these bases have an airfield). You'll also find all these airfields in NE Australia quite useful when launching an invasion to retake Port Moresby.

Other ingredients to an substantial 4E bomber air campaign include supply (lots of it), air HQ's with good commanders plus generous numbers of Aviation Support squads in base force LCU's.

Horn Island also a useful air base if you keep control of it. The airfield here expands to maximum size 6 though you'll also have to build a port here as well. Horn Island especially valuable as a base for fighters (P-38's in particular) and 2E bombers and much closer to targets in New Guinea.


With regard to bomber air ops... Until B-24 Liberators become available in large numbers (mid to late 1943) your supply of available USAAF 4E bomber planes (B-17's) is very limited, especially so for a long-term bombing campaign during 1942 and early 43. Conserving B-17 planes particularly important. B-17 planes damaged in action puts your bombing campaign on "pause" while the planes are repaired, enough destroyed planes seriously reduces or ends your bombing campaign until B-24's become available. Even a slow rate of plane attrition will reduce or end your bombing campaign if continued long enough. Night bombing is safe but not as productive. Daylight bombing is better provided there's no significant Japanese fighter CAP opposition. Pay attention to placement of Japanese flak LCU at bases in New Guinea (AAR's and Sigint reports useful). Bombing at 7000-8000' altitude eliminates most of a Japanese flak problem. Pay attention to numbers of available planes in your Aircraft Replacement pool. AE's production of B-17 planes is not very generous.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/11/2015 9:23:50 PM   
Dragoastro

 

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Status: offline 		Put at least one sub in each target hex to rescue pilots shot down.
Increase supply reqts at each relevant base to at least 6700, this means base will hold 3xsupply, thus >20,000 supply. 20k supply is needed to add replacement a/c to a sqdn.

Drago

(in reply to wneumann)
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RE: Help me be the best level bomberer evar! - 7/12/2015 1:05:57 AM   
bigred


Posts: 3599
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		Reminder:
sqns in training at a base count 1/3rd against air ops.
Sqns at 100% rest count nothing against air ops limit.
AirHq present in base increases sqn stacking ability alot
AirHq in range help stackng alittle

Read a post about this by Alfred last week but dont remember all the details nor the location.


< Message edited by bigred -- 7/12/2015 2:36:12 AM >

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