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TOE inconveniences - 8/8/2015 10:06:05 PM

henri51

Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
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I like the new TOE option in "New Dawn random scenarios". It is designed to reduce micro-management, since one's templates fill up requesting units if the replacements are available in the HQs.

But the problem is that replacing troops in a TOE unit can take up to 3 moves if the replacements are only available in the Supreme HQ: the request for replacements has to be sent up the chain of command and the units sent down the chain of command.This delay can be reduced by storing expected needed replacements in the local HQs which takes as much micro-management as the old method of transferring them directly from the Supreme HQ as needed. In addition, replacements from local HQs are constrained not by transfer supply rules but by the HQ power of the TOE unit, so a TOE unit that is more than a few road hexes from its local HQ gets a severely reduced proportion of the requested replacements.This fact and the long delays mentioned above severely increase the AI advantage in games.Micro-management can only be reduced by an unacceptable delay in replacements and increased constraints on unit distances to HQs.

On the steam forum, I have described some detailed tests I have made: for example, a TOE unit on a road ten movement hexes from its HQ also on a road got ZERO replacements until I added trucks to the local HQ, after which the TOE unit still got only a small proportion of the requested replacements, although plenty of trucks, staff and replacements were available in the local HQ(but the TOE unit had a HQ power of 0%, i.e less than 1%.

Since the objective of the TOE idea is to reduce micro-management, I suggest that TOE units get their replacements IMMEDIATELY when the "end of move" button is pressed from their local HQ if they are available there, and if not from the Supreme HQ if they are available there, using the normal transfer rules.Priorities could be adjusted in the normal old way by adjusting the % of replacements. If the requested replacements are not available up the chain of command, the request would be repeated on subsequent moves until they become available in a superior HQ.

If this were done, one would only need to ensure that the HQs had enough replacements to satisfy the requests from TOE units on the front, and the TOE units would fill up on each move if enough replacements were available up the chain of command.

< Message edited by henri51 -- 8/8/2015 11:07:41 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/8/2015 10:46:48 PM

Tac2i

Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
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I disagree with your statements below. I've played several TO&E games vs the AI and have not seen an increase in the AI effectiveness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

...the long delays mentioned above severely increase the AI advantage in games. Micro-management can only be reduced by an unacceptable delay in replacements and increased constraints on unit distances to HQs.

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Tac2i (formerly webizen)

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 2

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 12:02:58 AM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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I put trains and trucks in my headquarters to move replacements.

(in reply to Tac2i)

Post #: 3

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 12:57:55 AM

henri51

Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I put trains and trucks in my headquarters to move replacements.

I think you misunderstood my statement, the AI gets no direct advantage from the player using TOE: the AI already has advantages with respect to fewer constraints on supplies and replacements; so increasing the time for player TOE units to get replacements and reducing the amounts received due to distance from the local HQ(compared to transferring them by hand directly from the Supreme HQ)increases the player disadvantage with respect to the AI.As I mentioned, this player disadvantage can be reduced by sending replacements in advance to local player HQs but this requires estimating how many replacements will be needed on the upcoming moves, which requires inspecting TOE units and transferring enough replacements to the local HQs, which seems to me to require as much micro-management as doing it the old way (waiting for the replacements to be needed and transferring them from the Supreme HQ as needed).

As Twotribes says, putting enough trains and trucks into local HQs can do the job, but this requires a lot more trains and trucks than putting them mostly in the Supreme HQs and transferring replacements into units directly from there.

If I am missing something, please let me know.The manual and forum explanations for supplies and HQ functions are not particularly clear (and yes I have read the manual and strategy guide and various forum threads on the subject).But what my experiments have shown is that replacements sent to TOE units on roads directly from the Supreme HQ with enough trains, trucks and supplies are transferred completely and immediately, whereas replacements using the TOE system can take a few moves to arrive and may arrive only partially.

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 4

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 1:17:27 AM

Tac2i

Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline

Meant to say earlier, welcome back to ATG! Seems you have been gone awhile.

From Vic's Wiki Post (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/atwiki/doku.php?id=tables_of_organisation_and_equipment):

quote:

Reinforcements slowly move down the chain of command

Take in to account that it takes a round for auto-reinforcements to travel between 2 units. So if your production arrives at SHQ and then needs to go to THQ and then to FRONT UNIT it will take 2 rounds.

Transfer capacity and fuel use and reserve settings

In New Dawn the auto-reinforce transfer costs are much cheaper than the costs of regular transfers. Own power auto-reinforcement have double the range (and use either RDN or AP whatever is higher for movement points). This is done because the efficiency of an organized rule-based system is supposed to be much more efficient than hap-and-snap manual transfers. Furthermore it prevents micro management being more advantageous. The transfer point cost is only half and any possible oil cost (navy/land) is only a quarter.

You can set capacity point reserves in the LOG subsheets of your HQs. This might be interesting if you want to keep some point for manual transfers and/or strategic transfers. Mouse-over the current land/navy/rail cap points also shows you the points you were awarded before auto-reinforcement started.

Keep in mind that auto-reinforcements are subject to anti-supply just like regular transfers.

As stated in my first post, my experience with this new feature does not show that the AI vs Human Player has gained any increased advantage or the human player somehow has his task made more difficult. The fact that your HQ will automatically maintain a near 100% level and that your TO&E units will be auto reinforced to the level you set is a big time saver. It seems about right that the further a unit is from its HQ the less reinforcement it will get and the more time it will take to bring it up to full strength. You can set critical units to "priority" and they will get reinforcements first. All in all, I think this feature is great and a much needed addition to this game.

< Message edited by Webizen -- 8/9/2015 2:18:27 AM >

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Tac2i (formerly webizen)

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 5

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 1:30:45 PM

henri51

Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webizen

Meant to say earlier, welcome back to ATG! Seems you have been gone awhile.

From Vic's Wiki Post (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/atwiki/doku.php?id=tables_of_organisation_and_equipment):

quote:

Reinforcements slowly move down the chain of command

Take in to account that it takes a round for auto-reinforcements to travel between 2 units. So if your production arrives at SHQ and then needs to go to THQ and then to FRONT UNIT it will take 2 rounds.

Transfer capacity and fuel use and reserve settings

In New Dawn the auto-reinforce transfer costs are much cheaper than the costs of regular transfers. Own power auto-reinforcement have double the range (and use either RDN or AP whatever is higher for movement points). This is done because the efficiency of an organized rule-based system is supposed to be much more efficient than hap-and-snap manual transfers. Furthermore it prevents micro management being more advantageous. The transfer point cost is only half and any possible oil cost (navy/land) is only a quarter.

You can set capacity point reserves in the LOG subsheets of your HQs. This might be interesting if you want to keep some point for manual transfers and/or strategic transfers. Mouse-over the current land/navy/rail cap points also shows you the points you were awarded before auto-reinforcement started.

Keep in mind that auto-reinforcements are subject to anti-supply just like regular transfers.

As stated in my first post, my experience with this new feature does not show that the AI vs Human Player has gained any increased advantage or the human player somehow has his task made more difficult. The fact that your HQ will automatically maintain a near 100% level and that your TO&E units will be auto reinforced to the level you set is a big time saver. It seems about right that the further a unit is from its HQ the less reinforcement it will get and the more time it will take to bring it up to full strength. You can set critical units to "priority" and they will get reinforcements first. All in all, I think this feature is great and a much needed addition to this game.

Thanks and Yes, I have not played this game for a few years, and had forgotten almost everything about how to play. I went back and read my old AAR on a giant random map against 4 AI opponents to refresh my memory.But I still remember that you are one of the best contributors to the game and the forums.

I was not aware of Vic's detailed explanation of the TOE transfer rules, so thanks for posting them. Perhaps my impression of an added inconvenience for the player compared to the AI was my experience last week with a game where I did nothing to keep my local HQs filled with reserve units,trains and trucks with the result that most of my battered TOE troops were only very slowly filled or refilled, or not refilled at all with replacements, and so were easily steamrolled by the easiest AI.

I don't remember for sure, but aren't local HQs having trains not allowed outside of roads, which would severely reduce the distance that reinforcements could be sent by road if the HQs do not contain trains, or limit excursions outside of roads if the HQs do contain trains?

There are a few good AARs on Youtube, in particular a new one by Das using the New Dawn TOE units.

(in reply to Tac2i)

Post #: 6

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 7:55:49 PM

Tac2i

Posts: 2001
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: WV USA
Status: offline

I don't normally put trains in my combat HQs and on those occasions that i do, keep engineers nearby to build out the railnet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

I don't remember for sure, but aren't local HQs having trains not allowed outside of roads, which would severely reduce the distance that reinforcements could be sent by road if the HQs do not contain trains, or limit excursions outside of roads if the HQs do contain trains?

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Tac2i (formerly webizen)

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Post #: 7

RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/9/2015 8:50:07 PM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline

... besides trucks will do the job for you... They are not just for carrying troops you know ;)

(Trucks = LandCap, Trains = RailCap)

(in reply to Tac2i)

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RE: TOE inconveniences - 8/10/2015 1:30:20 AM

Philo32b

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/9/2012
Status: offline

I've been playing this new feature quite a bit and have also not perceived any AI advantage. I suppose the AI is reinforcing directly to local HQs, which saves it a turn over my two-turn TOE process, but it hasn't seemed to make a difference in any of my games.

As others in this thread, I also use some trucks in my local HQs to reinforce to the units. 5-10 trucks in each local HQ seems to do the job fine. I never thought to do all the reinforcing from the Supreme HQ, as the OP describes. It would seem that you would need an enormous number of trucks to reinforce units not on rail tracks if the units are any real distance from the Supreme HQ.

If you need to reinforce a particular army or unit at highest priority, you can tell the TOE system that, and it will fulfill those units needs first.

To me the new feature is wonderful. It has cut down on micro-management substantially.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 9