RE: churchill tank dance

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RE: churchill tank dance - 1/29/2016 12:28:04 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

I cant find the second vid I was looking for with the panthers milling around. I gave you the wrong name...its NOT bocages of death. oh well ive just about given up on tying to convince you of the bizarre stuff tanks do in this game. it does wreck the game in a big way tho IMO and the others I play. too bad........

id like your opinion on the 17 pdrs lack of effectiveness tho.

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 31

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/6/2016 1:57:47 AM

schreckenovski

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/6/2016
Status: offline

You gotta remember

pathfinding was not fixed

it was just changed... better/ worse ... you be the judge

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 32

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/6/2016 2:32:54 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

worse...way worse. with introduction of mud? to this game its WAY worse. can you say micro micro manage tanks....no that wasn't a stutter.

steve.. the 17 pdr issue? and allied accuracy vs german?
and id like to add that the 6pdr a/t gun is a far better german tank killer in this game then the tank 6 pdr.....why?

(in reply to schreckenovski)

Post #: 33

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/10/2016 8:39:24 PM

SteveMcClaire

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

Hi Stiener,

Sorry, I had a 12 day internet hiatus thanks to a cut line and a slow repair by my ISP.

I do believe you when you say the way tanks move in the game is frustrating to you. Nothing you've shown me so far is a bug, and I've tried my best to explain why things happen, and how you might get behavior more like what you want from the AI driver.

There's no hard coding of any sort of advantage or disadvantage for any given gun mounting (AT vs. vehicle) or for any nationality. First-shot hits are primarily influenced by the team's experience and current stress level. High experience teams will do better than low, and teams under fire / threat will do worse than those that are not.

Difference between weapons would come down to the values in the data files. You may be getting better results with the 6pdr vs. the 17pdr because the 6pdr (just from scanning the weapon data) has about double the rate of fire, with good AP penetration and about 4 rounds of APDS per gun (which has penetration roughly equal to 17pdr AP, though the kill chance will be lower due to smaller projectile.) The 17pdr does not have APDS.

Getting a penetration is going to depend on the angle -- a 17pdr should be able to pen a Panther from the front if the tank is more or less square-on (less than 30 degree facing angle) and the gun is not firing 'upwards' at the tank (i.e. the Panther is not tipped back relative the gun.) The only thing that would modify this would be the accuracy of the shot (low quality to-hit rolls do cause reduced penetration) and/or the tank being behind some sort of cover, like a tree, hedgerow, or stone wall, which will add protection rating to the armor except in cases of a 'good' or better to-hit roll.

Steve

Steve

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 34

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/10/2016 10:34:16 PM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

thanks steve...

so does the tank 6 pdr in the Churchill have APDS also??

so the 6 pdr had APDS before the 17 pdr.
im sure we beat this to death some where else but your saying that the 17 pdr in the tank and the towed gun didn't have APDS yet?? sources seem to differ on this. some sources say that the APDS was available to the 17 pdr at the end of june beginning of july.

speaking of rate of fire...I thought the Sherman had a higher rate of fire than the mk 4 and panther. it does not appear so in the game. any thoughts on this?

thanks

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 35

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/15/2016 7:08:26 PM

Cathartes

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

thanks steve...

so does the tank 6 pdr in the Churchill have APDS also??

so the 6 pdr had APDS before the 17 pdr.
im sure we beat this to death some where else but your saying that the 17 pdr in the tank and the towed gun didn't have APDS yet?? sources seem to differ on this. some sources say that the APDS was available to the 17 pdr at the end of june beginning of july.

speaking of rate of fire...I thought the Sherman had a higher rate of fire than the mk 4 and panther. it does not appear so in the game. any thoughts on this?

thanks

All 6 pdrs have a about 4 rounds of APDS, even those in Churchill tanks. In late June/early July 1944, no 17 pdr APDS available in time for Operation Epsom and none in the game.

Best,
Cathartes

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 36

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/15/2016 8:51:58 PM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

thanks cathartes

ill pay more attention to the Churchill 6 pdr and see if I can see it using sp rounds.

rate of fire...I thought the Sherman had a higher rate of fire than the mk 4 and panther. it does not appear so in the game. any thoughts on this?

< Message edited by STIENER -- 2/15/2016 9:54:07 PM >

(in reply to Cathartes)

Post #: 37

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/16/2016 2:45:47 AM

SteveMcClaire

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
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Stiener,

Cathartes is the expert on the GtC data and scenario design, and he has spoken. :) As for the Sherman rate of fire, it's in the data files too -- reload and fire times are identical for all the 75-76mm big guns. Historically I can't think of anything that would make this hugely different.

Steve

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 38

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/16/2016 3:03:48 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

well...turret size and gun size in the turret. the amount of room in the turret etc.
its been my information and I believe its been a factor in all the CC games....pretty sure this has been brought up before and talked about by you guys and us...that the Sherman had a faster turret rotation and rate of fire than the german main battle tanks.

me and my current opponents aren't seeing this.

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 39

RE: churchill tank dance - 2/16/2016 4:25:59 PM

Cathartes

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

that the Sherman had a faster turret rotation and rate of fire than the german main battle tanks.

Sherman turret rotation rate is faster than MkIV. Panther is more difficult to peg since rotation is a function of what engine gear the tank is in when the rotation is engaged, and this further varies with model (not a detail of the current CC engine) so avg rotation was estimated for Panther. As for rate of fire, sure there were some differences however testing was never standardized b/n countries, and results always dubious in non-combat situations. Most measurable differences are between AT guns and turret guns. Crew training, experience, doctrine, confidence, suppression, injuries, and where crew favored storing rounds outside of norm, etc. These factors often override any real differences in rate of fire with similar-sized weapons.

< Message edited by Cathartes -- 2/16/2016 5:29:37 PM >

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 40

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