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Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/9/2015 12:55:47 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		I'll just share my thoughts on Soviet defensive tactics which might be out of date a bit now because I haven't played them much under recent patches.
I've noticed that there's not a lot of theory about how to organize a defense so I'd be interested to hear what other people think about the best way to do it in various circumstances.

This defense is 41/42 orientated and is designed to absorb shock. It is strong but flexible.

I don't rely too much on carpet defenses (although they do have their uses for sure). With the right technique Axis players can chew through these 7 deep and still break out behind them. I try to have at least one MLR and particularly in the South build it behind a river line whenever possible. Two good divisions in level 2+ fortresses is best.

Ideally there's a picket line in front which will (if it doesn't rout) retreat into the MLR making the river line even stronger. If the picket unit is directly in front of the MLR it can be a strong division because this will almost certainly retreat into the MLR when attacked without routing. If the picket unit is two hexes or more in front then it should be weaker for fear that the picket unit itself will be targeted for pocketing. This picket line helps to absorb the shock of an attack and creates uncertainty in the mind of the attacker about how strong the MLR is exactly. Also If an enemy starts to clear the picket line it can act as a warning signal that a major attack could be imminent. It can be two hexes deep in vulnerable spots.

Two or three hexes behind the MLR depending on terrain I place strong points. These will be beyond the range of infantry attacks and strong enough that already weakened panzers will struggle to knock them over. Ideally in good terrain, in 41 and 42 I'm looking for CVs of 15+ (preferably more) in these stacks. Also these stacks and the cavalry divisions behind them will often form an important part of any counterattacking force. Army HQs are placed with them.

Further back still is what I think of as my Alamo line. It's a line of weak units, often brigades or cavalry divisions and ideally behind a river digging the next MLR. These are placed in such a way as to force exploiting panzers to go through at least two ZOCs if they have to go around the strong points.

Beyond that any important objective within conceivable striking distance is given a garrison of some sort. Whether that's a city or a major river crossing point or possibly a vital rail junction etc.

That's my bog standard type setup, obviously weaker sectors wont have these resources and vital sectors will have even more. Any spare units I place directly behind the MLR in reserve mode no more than one high so that they don't force too many retreating units to rout. These guys dig forts for the MLR units to retreat into. I don't place crucial elements of the defense in reserve mode for fear of weakening the defense possibly for no gain.

Once the river line is breached then comes the difficult choice of when to abandon it and when to fight. This will depend on the situation of course. There's nothing more depressing for an Axis player than to be thrown back across a river line in 1941/42 :(

Any thoughts anyone?

< Message edited by timmyab -- 9/9/2015 2:25:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/10/2015 5:58:21 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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Status: offline 		The axis infantry is badly demoralised after the winter battles , a picket line would give then the oportunity to recover morale.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/10/2015 8:04:43 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

The axis infantry is badly demoralised after the winter battles , a picket line would give then the oportunity to recover morale.


I'm sorry, but under 1.08.03/4 this is just utterly wrong. Doesn't matter how much you batter them in the winter, they recover to full strength by June. So that means you face the entire German army at near full strength all the summer while yours falls to pieces. I've just had defensive stacks of 45 cv pushed out of the way because the Germans could reach them.

The only valid Soviet strategy in 1942 under the current rules is to run and to keep out of the way of the German infantry, anything else invites disaster. In many ways its far more deterministic than 1941 is (which I think without the +1 etc now works pretty well).

and don't imagine you can damage the Pzrs by counterattacks. Rout a division, destroy 50+ tanks and a turn later its pushing at you with no long term loss of capacity.

All you can do is play accountant. You can lose x value of admin points, so how are you going to allocate those losses over 1942. Everything else is just window dressing.

A combination of too low losses (which we all know about), with seemingly too much manpower (both sides), the 40NM for the Soviets and 1942 alters from being a balanced tussle with both sides looking for advantage to an exercise in reaching a pre-ordained outcome. Just look at any of the current AARs in 1942.

And if the 1942 'balance' is needed as the Germans fall apart too quickly late game, well that, to me, is not much of a balance. Key is there is no point creating clever strategies when the game has become deterministic ... good/bad play will alter the final end position but makes no real difference to the broad trend of how 1942 is playing out.

edit: and of course the now predictable German March 1942 offensive is further evidence that the axis infantry is not demoralised. In reality the Germans made a number of small localised attacks to restore sectors and to finish off formations that the Soviets had pushed too far. We are seeing front wide, game changing offensives as of now.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/10/2015 9:08:54 AM >

_____________________________


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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/10/2015 8:36:36 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		70 morale means demoralised, because it cost increased movement cost to enter enemy hexes .

The german army gets 700,000 men above historical numbers .
Returning disabled/hiwis are enough to cover atrition numbers, with normal recruitment and
newly arived units pushing the orbat to 3,7 million men.

and a AXIS 1942 ofensive ends up as historical due to insuficient panzer production.



(in reply to loki100)
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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/10/2015 3:00:22 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		All very interesting, the conceptual stuff is above my pay grade.

I have been thinking along the lines of how to deploy sov forces for the March Axis blitz.

Front line, three rd/hex (no gds); next hex, one rx (lvl 2e); next, another lvl 2 brigade. then a line of gd rd, cav xxx, maybe some mtn xx and yet another rx.

Starting in Jan make an estimate as to where the winter offensive will stop, first hex behind this position move the extra xxxx hq with 18 rx's each and two or three sappers in hq. Two rx's per hex with the hq support will get this line to level two entrench. This will be the third line.

As those rx's complete their work, some will stay to maintain the e lvl, some will move back to dig some more,

Winter offensive stops in Feb, the three rd's in the front line will dig ok (we hope) the gds rd and cav xxx in the second line dig fast, the good stuff (gds and cav) is back in the fourth line by March, we hope, after digging to level 2 in the second line they get replaced by a single rx.

Pz ball will quickly wreck this, so now time to run (er, "redeploy"). At least far enough so that the german inf can't make deliberate attack on your new front line, three rds/hex again if you can afford it, backed by single xxx and xx units. If you are lucky and make good guesses, this first "run to" line will have been prepared to level 2 entrench by brigades.

Gotta go for now




< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 9/11/2015 4:15:00 AM >

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/10/2015 3:44:30 PM   
MattFL

 

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Status: offline 		In my game where I most certainly had a very successful 1941, my GHC opponent didn't do anything until June. Sat and rebuilt. By June the German army was completely rebuilt and incredibly powerful slicing through my lines of 45+ CV with ease and getting massive encirclements in the process. The offensive CV's of the Russians allows the pockets to be opened, but the troops inside of course face eventual doom. I'm very curious to see how it will all play out, but the Germans are probably more powerful in 1942 than they are in 1941 simply because they don't have to waste time covering large chunks of land, they can get to grips with you much easier. In my game as well, given high CV across the entire front, my opponent has forsaken offensive action in the south and is grinding towards Moscow and I'm beginning to wonder if I'll be able to stop him/hold until Mud....time will tell....I have been one arguing that the Russians are not at all too weak in 1942, but perhaps the Germans are a tad powerful.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 2:48:57 AM   
Sorta

 

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Status: offline 		RD/RX? I'm confused.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 3:03:27 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		Sure,

xxxxx = front, xxxx = army, xxx = corp, xx = div, x = brigade.

R for rifle, G for guard.

Rx is talking about rifle brigades, Tx would be tank brigade.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 3:12:58 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		Matt,

I know everything depends, I think you can stop the Axis, even the most powerful stuff, with Gds rxxx. Double stacked, they entrench fast, and should easy get def cv over 100.

You would need 32 Gd Rxx's in reserve having been pulled from the line in late winter or spring, then 16 rxx from the front defending Moscow. That would get 4 xxxx's each with 4 GdRxxx, 8 hexs of "stop". Gds Cav xxx behind to counter/attack. Also enough room in the front cp to have some more stuff on reserve activation.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 3:55:12 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
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Status: offline 		Charlie if only life was so simple and the Axis simply let you build up in peace......

Once winter ends...I mean the first week of March every single game where the Axis arent sucking you know what we see a massive Spring Axis offensive that typically nets at least 1 Soviet army or more before mud sets in. Then once mud is over encriclement after encirclement that steadily weakens or at best leaves the Soviet army the same strength but less ground and maybe experienced formations.

Again the AI has no real relevance to PvP play. I dont even waste time against the AI as it really is a waste of time to play the AI now. The AI will not use its forces effectively and especially as the Axis will be nowhere near as effective as a human player.

What the Soviets can do in the perfect environment is of course build a massive juggernaut of an army.....if the Axis player lets that happen they are most likely going to lose the war in 1944 at some point.

16 Rifle corps is a drop in the bucket to form an effective line to stop a panzerball assault. Most of my successful defensive actions against the Panzerball involved 20+ Soviet Corps operating in the same sector typcially backed up by 1-2 entire fronts of infantry units on the ground as well. Even then all that does is delay the wiping out of the initially encircled units. Not in one battle all summer was I able to stop Peltons Germans from at least encircling and destroying some Soviet units when his attacks were launched.

My game vs Pelton is up to Dec 1942....and the panzerball is still something to be feared and I have 50+ Mobile Corps-Cav/Mech/Tank- over 2/3rds are guards and have full 3 SU each, as well as 12 Guard Rifle Corps w/3 SU each. Im just hoping when january hits and I can build a massive amount more Rifle Corps i will finally be able to stop the pacman panzerball assaults in 1943 and have the initiative to start pushing the war West for good. Yes Pelton is a very good player, but IMO I dont suck either and it really is impossible to stop the Soviet unit losses in 1942....Ive gotten to the point of just accepting their is nothing u can do but try not to lose so many your front critically weakens.

Also keep in mind this is with total Soviet Air superiority 13k+ Soviet aircraft vs only 1k luftwaffe....he no longer even contests the air over the main engagement sectors.


< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/11/2015 4:56:51 AM >

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 4:49:44 AM   
charlie0311

 

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Status: offline 		Chaos,

Ok, never said AI games were like the "real thing", hope I don't have to say that again.

I suggested a deployment for March '42 and said it would be quickly destroyed by the Pz ball and retreat would be necessary. With a suggestion on how to retreat, even to a lvl 2 line. That wouldn't hold either. Need x2 rxxx per hex for stop. Do you dispute this?

I also described how 16 Gd rxxx could provide 8 hexes of "stop", not stop the entire German army. OK?

I must have missed the part where I said life was "so simple" and that the axis players would let you build up in "peace". But, since you are such a good player, I must have said something like that so I will look again until I find it.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 5:13:00 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		Regardles of the strategy you chose , strong armored forces deployed deep are a must .

the axis fields . 21 armored divisions , 10 mot, 3 SS mot (2 without LSAH ) , individualy none can witstand a deliberate atack but if the axis player stacks them up , you are not going to brake the pocket.

the advantage is that the outher (armored) encircelment ring is only 16 hexes hence the small pockets.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 7:01:26 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		the point is with the 1.08.03/4 rules 'strategy' is irrelevant. In 1942 the Germans just march across the map and there is nothing you can do. I've just had a turn with 40+ defensive cv stacks chucked out of the way and another pocket created.

now its perfectly possible that returning to 45 NM will lead to the other problem of the Germans making no progress in 1942, I think we're all aware that this game tends to escalate small advantages with too few dampening effects.

So the only valid Soviet strategy for 1942 is to try and roughly work out how many units you can afford to lose, use them to delay, hope you don't lose more, run away.

_____________________________


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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 8:11:15 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've just had a turn with 40+ defensive cv stacks chucked out of the way and another pocket created.



40+ defensive cv means nothing.

6 axis divisions with lousy 7-8 cv each, will crack it, in general when the AXIS cv matches the defensive cv, the atack succeds.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 9:52:27 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Interesting discussion. I would be particularly interested to know what defensive tactics people employ generally. I know the German 42 panzerball will cut through any defense at the moment, but good defensive tactics will help to limit the damage and could prevent the dreaded breakout in the rear.
In particular I've noticed that players don't always make best use of rivers, especially in the South where they are often the only natural defense and are nicely positioned geographically. Good Soviet players usually defend river lines in strength whereas I've noticed that weaker players often don't. Sometimes it's like they actually don't see these little blue lines on the map or are unaware of their significance. Certainly when playing the Axis side it's the thing that leaves me most perplexed. I'm always thinking to myself "I can't believe he hasn't put any strength behind that river". Not so when playing a strong player.

From a strategy point of view clearly the Soviets should run in the South right through 1942. Hopefully the next patch will blunt the panzerball a bit, but not too much because for me the German 1942 offensive is the part of the game I enjoy the most whichever side I'm playing. I believe in an even contest the Soviet player should feel threatened and worried throughout 1942 if the game is going to be exciting.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 1:08:23 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		2x rifle corps per hex for 8 hexes = encirclement bait and with slow soviet movement once the initial encirclement happens those corps will all be dead within 3 turns and a massive un-recoverable loss in Soviet AP. As each corps is 45 AP without including support units.

Also you will need some rifle corps in the north and moscow sectors just to make it to where the Germans dont attempt to break those sectors instead of concentrating in the south. Thus IMO Rifle corps are in general more useful in the North/moscow areas than the south where than be easily flanked and encircled.

River lines are critical in the south. In general I like to have a picket line on the west side of the river and main lines on the east side. This forces Germans to spend more movement first clearing the pickets then crossing the river. Often buys the defender about an extra turn and the summer of 1942 is all about time and trying not to lose to much for the Soviets. If you look at my AAR pictures you can much of the fighting is in and around river lines, once the river line is truly lost I back off to the next river line.

This is not only for the defense bonus of the river....but also cost more MP for the Axis mobile units to cross the rivers thus they cant get as far into your rear areas when crossing a contested river. Alot of Soviet defense is about calculating/limiting axis MP for movement more than just pure defensive CV. Defense CV means something as the axis may have to do a couple full attacks instead of hasty attacks vs strong positions but in general any soviet defensive position in 1942 can be destroyed by a dedicated Axis attack and then the follow on units flow through.

Its why IMO as soviets it best to keep a frontline of 1-2 divisions or BDEs and everything else towards the rear in secondary lines/picket line zoc defense lines for counterattack mobility limitation on the Axis. You need more than just 1 BDE as the initial line or its to easy for German infantry to push aside. 2 Divisions up and a BDE behind seems to work alright or 1 div+ 1 BDE up and a division behind either seems to get close to the same effect especially once dug in to at least lvl 2.

Simple answer is accept you will lose armies and be ready with Stavka reserves to fill the holes. Have a large reserve counterattack force as the Soviets...you need this counterattack force to move in and keep the pocket open long enough for stavka reserve armies to fill in and start digging new positions while the 1-2 turns of counterattacks are tying up the German mobile units.

Again as per my AAR and advice you need at least 15 Soviet Cav corps as counterattack forces going into the Summer of 1942 preferrably more. Also start building and training tank corps ASAP...at least 10 I would say and build more as you get AP. Once you get up to 20 cav/20 tank corps its much more difficult for the germans to just run you over at will as you have a credible counterattack force than can even cut off German units they have to worry about.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 3:06:50 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Well, my friend Chaos insists on reading what he wants, or seems to want.

What I meant with my 8 hex stop, was, was, yes as you imagine, deploy the 16 grxxx in 8 hexes in a nice straight line, way out in the open, by themselves, no picket, no back-up, flanks wide open, no reserves. And a great big sign that says "please eat me".

'42 rxxx is 20 AP's. Plus a few for attachments.

The 8 hex stop was in response to Matt, who is trying to defend Moscow. Not to be used in the South.

River lines and terrain seems obvious, I thought, to everybody, so I saved myself a little typing time by not including this.

Have noticed that you have gotten more specific with your comments, a good thing.

What I have not seen is any comment on setting up rifle brigades in a command structure, ie, with hq and sappers. this gets better cv and digs faster. And, since the hq will be under Straka, you can move the Stravka HQ within 5 and get the benefit of massed sappers in Straka, gamey as hell.

Bonus, the "cut points", in morale, for reduced movement costs to enter ezoc are 56,71,86. If you ask real nice I will provide the manual source, or somebody else can provide. This matters, especially since you may not what your pickets to be brushed aside by hasty infantry attacks. Example, only the very best German inf (morale over 85) can hasty from 5 clear hexes, that would be 10 MP's burned to advance "to contact" then three (I think) for the hasty. That's in clear weather, so for the cold turns, the picket line can be closer.

Players should have 16 cav xxx by Dec '41, cost is 5 AP each, just don't lose the cav xx which come along as reinforcements. A few more trickle in early '42. That's going to be a lot of cav xxx, really cheap, not as mobile as txxx, but much, MUCH, more powerful.

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 4:37:35 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		German infantry arent really a big problem on the move. Most of the time in the summer of 1942 the issue is the infantry get to your line and open the hole for the Armored forces. This saves the armored forces MP on the initial breakthrough and also allows some of the infantry divisions to guard/protect the first couple hexes of the encirclement. 3x German infantry divisions is very hard to push back...almost easier to hit 2-3x panzer/motorized division stacks. Again something you can see in AAR pictures.

Also i prefer to attack German mobile units to wear them down and exhaust more of thier fuel/supplies/trucks for later turns. You can capture a fair amount of trucks from axis mobile units with zoc'd retreat routes an such.

Most of the time the soviets ability to keep the pocket open and not risk additional encirclement ends once more and more axis infantry units filter into the situation. Also why its a good and basically necessary thing for the soviets to fall back after an encirclement is locked. Because if you dont the infantry will take over that entire encirclement and the German mobile formations will circle out and grab another quick pocket.

As to command and control of soviet units.....if your units are in combat is always best to have them at army command then to front command then to Stavka...increases CV by easily 2/3x most of the time if you have a decent leader. Also direct to stavka almost always costs CV value in final caluculations.

My general theory for back up defense lines was put stavka stuff way to rear on projects that wouldnt matter for awhile or put them on rail lines for easier supply flow. For units digging important lines in the winter of 41/42 for summer 1942 I used airborne corps for alot of them. After the winter I start to disband the airborne HQs to provide trucks/support squads to my newly forming tank armies. Not sure this was the best idea but its what i did, as I have had a constant manpower shortage for all of 1942 so needed the men to get my mobile armies to full strength.

I would for sure do some command/control things different and not mess up and attach an entire army to the wrong front like i did early in this game...something I still havent fixed thus the green colored units in the far south when most of that front is actually in the Tula area lol. However Im not going to waste AP fixing it and it really hasnt been critical to swap the army by rail all the way to Tula and replace it with a new army as of yet.

Command and control is really critical to everything you do in the game. Simple info is assign your best generals to your most important armies. My shock army generals are fairly decent to above average and my tank armies get the best Mech commanders I can find. Im keeping my shock armies all cavalry and thus using infantry commanders for them....also makes it to where I dont need a good mech/inf command since they are all cav corps and my tank armies are all mech/tank corps.

Im looking foreward to playing Soviets a second time through at some point...but really plan to wait for .05 as many changes wont affect .04 games in progress from what I understand due to OOB changes Im guessing.

1941- is actually very critical to the Soviets for 1942...how you build the army and the choices you make with AP you will be stuck with in 1942. Luckily my initial plan from game start worked out and the Cav Corps as per my initial analysis proved the best Soviet units to have in the field in 1942. Did I have perfect AP use no, but good enough to survive and build a fairly solid red army 2.0 so far.

1942- Aside from an axis auto win in 1941, 1942 is really the critical point in the game probably much more so than historical. The game more or less hits fantasy land compared to historical in 1942. The OOBs especially for the Axis are more powerful than any Axis dream situation and the Soviet OOB is only slightly stronger percentage wise than historical. This leads to much more powerful defense and offense from the Axis than any player with historical knowledge will expect. This leads to almost a 1941 situation for the Soviets again for 1942 with your real only hope being that you built a good cadre of counterattack formations to keep pockets kicking alittle longer and delaying the German super panzer army group. So the Soviets entire objective once more in 1942 is just to survive and try to limit the Axis OOB from growing even more so maybe in 1943 you can start to take the fight back to the Axis with your own now built and decently competent offensive forces.

Also 1942 you have to show some initiative as the Soviets if you let the Axis dictate the entire fight I think you will lose...sitting around with a blob defense will just get you slowly chewed up IMO. Your ability to organize successful counterattacks and pick good retreat lines/back up defense lines is critical. As well as decided when and how to back out of a battle in progress. You must pick your battles and realize when you have gained all you can gain from the situation and its time to cut your losses and run. Also try to get action going in quiet fronts if you can force the German player to commit more forces to the quiet sectors this strips them of infantry support in the main assault areas, forces them to rely on their axis allied units to hold the lines in places.

Cant comment on 43+ as we are just now getting to 1943 lol.



(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 18
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 7:34:34 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Some thoughts from my poor 1942 experience:
- german offensive begins from the first turn of march and it is very powerfull
- north of Kaluga can be held because of swamps, woods....
- south of Kaluga, retreat begins the last turn of February, don't be caught by inf divs, they will make the hole and the Pzd will run behind
- use rivers
- be ready to retreat on the Volga and the caucasus mountains
- I agree with the creation of Cav corps to get your pockets alive one more turn.




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Post #: 19
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 8:18:21 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
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Status: offline 		sov defence very easy =) 4 line +1 line ,1-2 lvl fort =)

end april 42 - https://yadi.sk/d/HVLw-LTSj36Kr , pass 1qaz

and after summer you can start go west =) https://yadi.sk/d/23cD092yj36aR

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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 10:05:22 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		cant seem to open and look at any of your links.

However I dont think its as easy as it seems...even 4 lines of junk units is easy to push aside. Not to mention at current not seeing how many if any soviet players can form enough units by march 1942 to have 4 lines of anything but utter crap Soviet units. Unless the German player has a super crappy 1941 isnt really any way for a Soviet player to be strong across the entire front...so basically you have to be strong in the north/moscow otherwise the German play will see the weakness and grab all that awesome terrain easily.

So you have to be weaker in the south and due to the open terrain/lack of massive troop density its just an exercise in losing units at a controlled pace in the current version of the game. Look at your game vs Stef....I see quite a few Soviet units on the map yet you fairly easily broke through and managed to drive what 100+ miles through soviet territory in 1 week. Simple fact is the Germans are super uber in 1942.....to uber I dont know will see how 1943 goes in my current match. They are performing far better than historical as far as combat power goes. An the only reason territory gains might be slightly less than historical is because German players dont want to expose flanks/weak points to soviet attacks...so if they took more risk like historical germany did they could easily get historical or better than historical territorial gains at the moment.

like i have said several times now im not advocating for reduced german capabilities yet as I want to see if the balance shifts to heavily/quickly to the soviets in 43/44.

With much bloodshed and I think some very good/close fights I managed to keep Pelton to about an overall historical 1942 performance from the Germans. Yes he didnt get as much of the south but he got still has more of the north and upper south than historical so that balances out land area wise. We have a pretty much even historical type match going on right now up to Dec 1942....the big issue is no exposed flanks means no decent Soviet counter-offensive in late 1942/early 1943....just slow grinding attritional attacks mainly.

My own personal opinion is the Soviet mobile corps are rated to low in 1942 is a big part of the problem. The Germans basically have no fear/dont need to worry about a soviet mechanized breakthrough. If Soviets get 45 NM back that might help put some teeth back in their mobile corps alittle earlier in 1942. By late 1942 the soviet mech/tank corps should be something to worry the Germans and really they still arent even at 90% ToE w/ 3 support units.

(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 21
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 10:50:45 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline 		https://dropmefiles.com/Auepw

it easy =)and german not uber, stef doing tine lines =) 1 fort 2 lvl whis 2 div cant stop PZ army =)


(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 22
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/11/2015 11:52:49 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Looking over the saves you posted.....the German player is doing very badly is why you think the game is fine.

Look at axis losses they are double just about every other game, and you still hold leningrad. Pelton proved you can take leningrad no matter how good the defense is in March 1942 once the blizzard penalties end. My leningrad defenses in March 1942 were better than what you have there in this game and I still lost the city.

You evacuated almost all Soviet industry and managed to to keep the German player at around 3M men total. Was all this played under 1.08+ game version?

Every other game since 1.08.04 we have seen almost 4M man German armies....so taking almost 1M german troops out of the game in your situation is a much much different game.

Also was this with reduced blizzard? +1 soviet attack odds? those are all things that factor....most games now are playing with reduced blizzard conditions and no +1 soviet attack. ---hmm guess I can reload the save and look to see this info have to do that lol

So after checking game was done with +1 Soviet attack modifier explains some of the higher German losses...but still curious how the Axis player managed to take such heavy losses.....as these numbers seem to be about twice as high as most other games by the turn points you posted. Also game seems to have been under a different game version as the logistics log looks way different from what I see since 1.08+

Has to be an older version of the game as all Soviet units are also still 45+ morale so this is not under the current game version and thus no use to the current discussion.

You give me a 7M man soviet army against only 3M germans and its a completely different game. That extra million Germans is the huge problem I think most Soviet players are having trouble dealing with as the German infantry are staying at 90% ToE which allows them to keep higher morale from not being successfully attacked.

Please keep game files you want to use to back up a case to the current game version as 1.08+ changed alot of stuff in the game. Soviet NM being a huge massive one.


< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/12/2015 1:23:07 AM >

(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 23
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 1:47:59 AM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Matt,

I know everything depends, I think you can stop the Axis, even the most powerful stuff, with Gds rxxx. Double stacked, they entrench fast, and should easy get def cv over 100.

You would need 32 Gd Rxx's in reserve having been pulled from the line in late winter or spring, then 16 rxx from the front defending Moscow. That would get 4 xxxx's each with 4 GdRxxx, 8 hexs of "stop". Gds Cav xxx behind to counter/attack. Also enough room in the front cp to have some more stuff on reserve activation.


Yes, but how many GDS Rifle corps does one have spring of 42. Sure, I could probably create a few stacks like this and the whole lot would be avoided and encircled. The Germans can shift their panzer Ball with more efficiency that the Russians can counter. So unless you have a few hundred guards rifle corps this just doesn't work.

In early June, my opponent attacked my front by Lenningrad, got an encirclement and I shifted strength from the center to the Lenningrad front. He then pushed east a bit, finished off the encirclement, and the following turn shifted everything back to the Moscow front my recon discovered. So I shifted again, built a 40-50 CV wall and he just cut right through it including the 2nd and 3rd line and encircled probably 30 units. Mostly divisions, 1 corps I think, but several hundred thousand men for sure. His breakthrough was mostly a single hex wide, but stacked 3 deep the whole way with pz divisions and mot divisions. I broke it in two places, but he closed it again and made it stronger. The point is, these guys are doomed and though I can build another new wall of perhaps even higher CV, the turn after he finishes the pocket he'll slice through it again, rinse and repeat. Each time I'll lose a few hundred thousand men. So this 4-5 turn process will continue until mud, so probably 3 more times as it's July. So figure i'll take another 700,000 casualties from encirclement. What I'm starting to think now is to stop building up Rifle Corps solely to stop losing the AP if they get encirceled and to just fight him with divisions until this madness ends and THEN build up the corps in early '43. So to change strategy a bit to be more AP conservative. Losing 20 rifle divisions is far more effective than losing 10 rifle divisions and 10 rifle/tank corps.




(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 24
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 2:33:17 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Matt, ok so eight wasn't the right number to pick, rxxx become avail in Jun. Before that you suffer.

If you can manage 50 gdrd from the blizzard offensive, and have 500 AP's ready to go for Jun. 25x20 = 500 AP's, and 25 gd rxxx, kind of a best case scenario. You can replace the gdrxx's from the front with 50 morale rxx formed from brigades. Build a lot of brigades.

Only presented this idea as an option. Point is rxxx 2 per hex is a much higher def cv than 50, you will see for yourself, maybe already have.

With 20 rxxx and another 20 cavxxx, summer is not all slaughter for the sov

I picked eight because is was easier, I though, to do the math with. Did not say that would stop the axis army. 16 fit nicely into one front, maybe I should have said that, and actually I did.

For the second time now, never said 8 rxxx stops the German. Am saying 2x rxxx per hex ain't gonna get moved, approx. over 100 def cv. Show me how that's wrong. Well, I could do it, but it takes a very well organized attack and you won't be able to do many of these in one turn. Even when you knock it back, the second line has a lvl 2 cav xxx.

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 9/12/2015 3:38:31 AM >

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 25
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 2:43:21 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Would be kinda nice if matrix would fix the edit function.

I know the shock of opening a turn and seeing a disaster, just trying to help.

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 26
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 2:53:33 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Yes you guys are getting my points now....the Soviets need to stay mobile as much as possible with Corps in 1942 which is why IMO Cav/Tank/mech corps are the way to go. They get enough movement that if you make a hole they can usually attempt to get out.

Rifle Corps cant move fast enough to counterattack or escape pockets. I think some rifle corps used to shore up the north and moscow is necessary also helps keep the Germans honest as they cant leave a total crap line up there if you have several corps you can hit back with. The terrain and fortified levels will usually keep encirclement difficult up there to so flanks arent as big a concern as they are in the south.

Its why I have only built 12 Rifle corps.....but built 50+ Cav/tank/mech corps with my AP instead.

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 27
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 3:34:00 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Can't get all that built until Oct or so. Another 500 or so AP's. Assuming you are building txxxx hqs, starting in Jul.

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 9/12/2015 5:05:10 AM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 28
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 3:38:47 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		U can start tank corps in April. An yes I was building those units all summer long.

By March I was at 19-20 cav corps

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 29
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 4:02:45 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		yep, 20 cav xxx by spring, get enough cav xx (approx.) from the reinforcements.

Apr tx xxx, not really so hot, what's the cv, only three, 5 or maybe 6 with attachments.

T-34 upgrade, starts in Jul, then Tk xxxx HQ (jul, again), new leaders, all very expensive. tk xxx cv doesn't get much over 10 unless GD, (better TOE), even then not as high as the cav. Mech doesn't even begin as xxx until sep.

The consensus seems to favor the Apr tk xxx anyway. And, I see a lot of lines with the 50 def cv just getting blown away. Why not run, to the Oka in the north and the Moscow area, all the way to the Volga in the center if necessary. The Don in the south isn't that much help, run when you see the axis massing.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 30
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