RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 7:02:31 AM

beekeeper

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline

it game was summer 2014, +1 sov att, red blizzard

but i think principle of the sov defense has not changed - 4+1 lines , if not have - run and dig 4+1 =)

(in reply to beekeeper)

Post #: 31

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 3:27:33 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

If you just run the axis just advance and you dont buy time. You are basically sacrificing troops to save your cities/land further into the Soviet union.

You could run but you will lose far to much population if you just run as you would still be stuck defending a long line along the OKA and losing everything Saratov south plus maybe more such as Penza and several of the cities north of there since the OKA doesnt screen them.

To me running that much isnt an option plus if you dont fight you dont wear down the Axis forces at all. You can eventually wear them down by fighting heavily and counterattacking the panzers. My game vs Pelton proves that. As I have inflicted close to the highest losses on the Axis in that game since 1.08+ and it has worked his army is no longer over 4M and he has started some disbands to keep his line infantry strength up.

Beekeeper....your saved game has to many different variables over current game rules and game results to be valid for 1.08+. An axis army with 1 million more men and a soviet army with 5 less National Morale are massive changes to how the game works. A 5 point national morale shift is somewhere around a 10-15% change in CV value for your entire army. So in 1.08+ we are seeing a German army that is 25% stronger on average and a soviet army that starts 1942 10% weaker due to NM changes and most likely gets quickly even weaker due to how much stronger the Axis forces are with those extra 1M men in combat. Those are reasons your older tactics and strategy are no longer valid.

As all in all since 1.08+ the balance has effectively shifted 25-35% towards the Axis when you look at total Army CV value by the summer of 1942.

(in reply to beekeeper)

Post #: 32

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 3:57:32 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Take a look at where the manpower comes from, production symbol, the click on "manpower" or whatever the word is below, you can lose many cities.

Pelton gave you many opportunities to attack single units. First you say "not enough" losses in the game, now you say look at all these Axis losses. Huh?

Not against counter-attacking. M-60 seems to have given up the entire South.

Every week that goes by with out big encirclements is a win. pac man seems unavoidable, if you don't run. Little pac man will become bigger and bigger pac man if you don't run.

You're the guy who told us you had a "cold stop" on Pelton and then the very next turn or so he got a 50 or so unit encirclement including 7 cav xxx, remember? So, wondering if you understand this game so well seems, ok, and not NOT insulting. I don't want counter attacks that "go bad", we all know what that means.

Long lines favor the Sov, they have more units, the axis can't really get stretched too far or it is they who can be pocketed, yeah, come winter '42/'43, Then your tk xxx are serious threat, ala the "real" game.

xx2 :)

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 33

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 4:28:11 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

Well read all my posts first off not.

Casualties are to low the reason for 4M man german armies and 7-8M man Soviet armies.

However in the long run and with enough effort you can slowly start to burn down the German army that is what Im saying. I know grasping long game tactics is tough for some.

Every city you lose is less men, and really from what im seeing men isnt something I have an excess of and Ive held pretty well historical territory....so losing all the south, stalingrad and saratov or penza or any of those extra cities menas less soviets/longer to rebuild a big army to take the fight back west.

As to stopping Pelton I never said he was stopped until close to winter and I stand by my statement which was he wont get alot more ground maybe closer to Stalingrad and he will be stopped.....well look at where our game is he crossed the don to the south, destroyed my weakest/hardest to reinforce front and guess what he stopped.....didnt get all of the south and didnt get stalingrad. In fact he will probably be back to Rostov by the end of winter in march/april is my guess.

The big encirclement your talking about was early in the summer, and I made a couple mistakes and im pretty sure I even pointed out what those mistakes where.....however did he kill a single corps in that encirclement...nope not a single one, I lost some infantry divisions and infantry BDEs that I purposely left in place to limit his re-supply so I could get all the corps out and launch numerous successful counterattacks on his panzer forces. However again being mobile saved my forces...every cav corps and every tank corps got out.....

As to counterattacks going bad.....its a risk you take and historical...the soviets historically lost many tank and cav corps conducting offensive operations in 1942. Historically the Soviets build 27 cav corps/mobile groups in the war....by 1943/44 they have how many left?

The issue is for "balance" the soviets basically get fewer men and fewer AP than they historically had which allows pacman to be viable german tactic. Not overly complaining about it as it makes for a good "game" but hardly historical.

As to my skill, ability to play the game and whatnot so far my results speak for themselves. You like many others were like ohhh Chaos45 is a newb Pelton will school him....well I played a different strategy than most Soviet players who have lost/are losing or only fighting for a draw at this point and im in the best positions of all of them against one of the best German players....so again think my playstyle speaks for itself in the AAR.

Nobody can play a perfect game as this game takes to long and has to many choices/variables each round. I and Pelton have both made mistakes but in general far fewer mistakes than either high command did historically lol. If anything thats where the game fails the Soviets as they were complete morons in effect for almost the first 2 years of the war and still won. If you play like a moron for the first 2 years of the war you will auto lose as the soviets in the game....as effectively the Soviets have very little cushion for major mistakes especially in 1942. If you screw up the 1941 defense you auto lose in 1941.....if you mess up to badly in 1942 you auto lose as well...would say if anything the game is giving the Germans a far greater chance of winning the war than they ever had historically but makes for a tight game against 2 players of decent skill.

As the Soviets just surviving 1941 is good enough...by 1942 you have to do more than just survive if you want to win the game. Its why the blob 4+1 lines of crap BDEs/DIV wont work. I looked at Beekeepers lines in 1.08+ the germans can pacman those lines all day long and you will lose more men/AP than you are replacing every week. Counterattack is key make the germans spend at least 3 turns preferably 4 turns to lock a pocket and liquidate it.

If I can make the Germans burn almost a month of summer per big pocket its a net win for the Soviets especially if you are beating up the panzer/motorized divisions at the same time.

As long as I have time I do plan to get another game or two going once .05 is released but dont see a point in starting anything else under .04 since many changes only affect new games. Me and Pelton are going to finish out the current .04 game because well I took a beating for 80 turns now its time for the Soviets to have some fun going forward lol.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 34

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 4:52:18 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Maybe you meant "read all my posts, first of all"?

Done that. the guy hasn't looked at the manpower centers, that's obvious. My remark about cold stop, then big pocket stands, look the posts up if anybody cares.

"Some" people, what was it, have difficulty grasping long term effects, or something.

"You like many others were expecting Pelton to school the newbie" Really?

Not interested and won't participate in civil war in the forums.

Little pac man is pockets with double and triple stacked seals, can't touch these with tk xxx (early 42). As the sov army gets reduced and not enough on map units to replace losses, little pac get bigger and can lead to eventual role up of whole fronts. I'm stating the obvious here.

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 35

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 6:51:56 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

Well hate to contradict you charlie but the soviets can break into pockets sealed with 2/3 stacked German units did it alot all summer long. An towards the end of summer into fall in the south I was smashing back 2-3 hexes of double/triple stacked German units. Its all a matter of proper concentration of Soviet forces, use of airpower, and artillery BDE/Divisions. In fact when the Germans do a single line breakthrough with stacks of 2-3 is the best time to hit them as it causes massive retreat losses and even routs more easily. Even just one massed attack that causes a 2-3 hex retreat or rout and then back away with the Cav corps is very worthwhile. Those hit and run tactics add up over the long game.

For a german encirclement to be unbreakable it needs to be about 3 hexes wide. If they only get a 1-2 hex wide encirclement soviet zocs and counterattacks can much more easily open the pocket and cause heavy retreat losses on the Germans if you know how/have the forces available to counterattack. Also love tank BDEs for running into places and putting zocs up or opening that last hex. Yes they take a pounding but have a tank BDE routed lost isnt much in the way of lost troops really for the soviets. Tanks/inf BDEs are great as sacrifice pawns to zoc up the germans and limit their supply operations.

Several airstrikes on a target hex followed up by an attack by 5+ Soviet corps backed by 2+ Brigades of Artillery proves extremely effective against most non-heavily fortified German Stacks. The airstrikes cause a ton of disruption then following that up with the additional disruption from the Artillery in the main attack usually means a win if you have done it right.

Even without Artillery BDEs in early/mid summer I was successfully pushing back 2-3 stacks of german infantry/panzer/motorized units. Guard cav corps with a couple supporting tank corps and 2-3 air strikes works wonders when done right. Then throw in a couple inf BDEs/divisions for good measure if you have the space for just a little more CV lol.

Air strikes play heavily in my counterattack style against Pelton. If you can do 2-3 decent size air strikes on Germans that arent at least dug in to lvl 2 your odds of winning an attack against them significantly increase. As keeping a pocket open can be as simple as one attack if its the right place to attack after you have moved soviet units and put correct zocs in place.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 36

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 7:29:40 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Very well then, I stand corrected. I especially like your use of air power.

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 37

RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42 - 9/12/2015 8:10:37 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

Air power is part of the key....At first I thought I built to many planes having around 9k aircraft, but over the term of winter 1941 through 1942 I found bombing german units for disruption to be extremely effective. In fact if you test it out I think you will see a noted difference in successful/unsuccessful attacks with correlation to bombing attacks from the red air force.

Usually I try to look over the situation at the start of the turn and determine where I can most likely successfully counterattack...then I do all of my unit bombing as that has to be your air groups first action. If you forget and launch an attack u can stop an entire air army from doing any unit bombing that turn. Believe me I forget sometimes and then a couple of my assaults will fail. With 2-3 decent size bombing raids I found my ratio of successful assaults much higher each turn.

Not to mention all that extra disruption turns to fatigue and wears down the german mobile formations as even after your attacks they are often left in contact with soviet unis for their recovery phase. Now they are high experience so losses arent as high but its just another slight wear and tear factor you put on the Germans. I bomb the max amount of times I can every turn trying to hit exposed German panzer/motorized formations as the priority.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/12/2015 10:32:39 PM >

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 38