Patching Process

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Patching Process - 9/11/2015 6:57:37 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

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From: Bozotown
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How does the patching process work? I really would like to know.

Who comes up with the specific design changes? Is it a group of trusted players?

For example who came up with Soviet morale of 40 in 42 in the latest? Or the change were no front line troops get replacements. Or the new changes to the air model.

How are these changes tested? Who is testing them? Are they tested with a game human vs human. Human vs AI. AI vs AI.

How does it all work? Please enlighten me.

Post #: 1

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 7:20:31 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

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From: Bozotown
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quote:

Sorry, no time to answer all posts.

List of people that took part in creating 1.08 is in the credits. Some work with me to this day. Some helped only once or twice. Those that are active have greater impact on the changes I propose, and/or they propose some changes that are later discussed, implemented, tested, altered, tested, accepted or dropped. Some people are more competetive types and they see things differently, than for example me. I try to make changes that make sense from logical and historical standpoint, while working around issues created by turn based IGoYouGo mechanics and problems with scale. Sometimes this forum and player's current problems are my source of inspiration. Of course playing 220 turn PBEMs to test impact of changes is impossible, so we have to make short tests or run AIvsAI games that don't show the whole picture so we have to rely on experience and intuition. This is a very iterative process and the adjustments can be made indefinitely. If you don't like those changes you could revert to 1.07.10, which is the last 2by3 WitE. 1.08 is a bit mine & the rest of beta team. It's impossible to achieve perfection with single patch, but we try to adapt and adjust. Hope you have more fun than anger in the process.

Why not use a more democratic way of handling things. Proposed design changes could be discussed in the forum and voted on. The system you describe is deeply flawed.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 2

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 8:24:47 PM

chaos45

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Joined: 1/22/2001
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frontline units get replacements just at a reduced rate...Im finding in .04 most of my line units in quiet sectors are staying around 90% as long as I keep them in refit mode.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 3

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 8:49:20 PM

RedLancer

Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Why not use a more democratic way of handling things. Proposed design changes could be discussed in the forum and voted on. The system you describe is deeply flawed.

Your post #13 here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3921496 speaks volumes and I intend no criticism.

Becoming a makeup artist takes time, effort and the objective ability to make the very best of some of the underlying features in the understanding that some things cannot be changed without major surgery which might kill the patient. It's not for everyone.

There is a group of testers (some started with WitE alpha and others like myself post release). We have our own forum where we discuss development. I'm not very active with WitE as my focus is WitW but I would observe those who are more active have more influence.

_____________________________

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 4

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 9:19:18 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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Unfortunately democracy doesn't work well with small group of players interested enough to offer input. What if there are more Soviet than Axis fans? Or the other way round? Game would spiral into even more unbalanced state. A game is always a colaborative effort of a small group of people led by a very small body, sometimes consisting of just one designer. Just look at credits of most boardgames. Game therefore is always a vision of its designer. But he can be influenced by people or can gather feedback indirectly, by observing. Some kind of a benevolent despot is best suited to that task, someone has to process input and make (sometimes) hard decision, or the game would never be produced. But that's in general. WitE was created by Gary, Joel and Pavel in the first place. And my patches do not change core ideas of the game. I'd say 90% of changes are not controversial - bug fixes, new functions or GUI enchancements, data and scenario fixes by Denniss. There is also removing loopholes in the system, which is not liked by those who used and abused them. Finally, there is a core group of parameters that when adjusted have large impact on the game, like morale. Tweaks such as this were seen by us as necessary, since 1942 was a year of static warfare. But maybe it was not because morale 45 was too high. Maybe it was because morale was bugged and was actually 50. So change to 40 AND fixing the bug was too much, but that was clear only after release. Therefore next patch requires an adjustment in opposite direction. And that's what it is - tuning based on feedback from longer running PBEM games, which is impossible to do behind the scenes. This process may be flawed, but others would be worse.

(in reply to RedLancer)

Post #: 5

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 9:31:49 PM

morvael

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... And frontline troops have easier now to get replacements and upgrades, which was previously limited and disabled, respectively. This was done to reduce micromanagement, but mostly to prevent snowballing effect of weaker, withdrawing side getting less (because their logistics phase was done with their forces in contact), while stronger, advancing side getting more (because their logistics phase was done with their forces not in contact), stemming from IGoYouGo mechanics, which of course is not changeable. Don't know from where you got this wrong impression that replacements are harder to get.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 6

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 10:29:50 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

Posts: 890
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From: Bozotown
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quote:

Unfortunately democracy doesn't work well with small group of players interested enough to offer input. What if there are more Soviet than Axis fans? Or the other way round? Game would spiral into even more unbalanced state.

I doubt it would be worse then it is now. But why just focus on the voting idea. Forget about the voting. Why not disclose the proposed design changes before implementing them. Make them open for discussion.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 7

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 11:41:32 PM

CTKnudsen

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Joined: 12/21/2010
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Worse than it is now? Really? But why waste even more time soliciting opinions before doing a patch? Morvael has been patching the game for a good while now, and taking feedback throughout. Why should he listen to your criticisms above others? Why should you get a vote when you are not writing the patch? If you want input into the process, provide constructive feedback on the next update, spend some time talking respectfully to those that have been a part of the development/patching process, see if they will let you into the development forum, and then work as part of that team.

Failing that, write your own mod that changes the parameters you think should be changed, test it, and if it works, let people know. Otherwise, be happy that someone in the community is putting effort into improving this game, which is now almost 6 years old.

Sheesh.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 8

RE: Patching Process - 9/11/2015 11:58:06 PM

chaos45

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I think all Bozo is saying is it would be nice to see all the proposed changes in the patch so if the community wants to weight in before it goes live they can.

(in reply to CTKnudsen)

Post #: 9

RE: Patching Process - 9/12/2015 3:05:25 AM

Bozo_the_Clown

Posts: 890
Joined: 6/25/2013
From: Bozotown
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quote:

Worse than it is now? Really? But why waste even more time soliciting opinions before doing a patch? Morvael has been patching the game for a good while now, and taking feedback throughout. Why should he listen to your criticisms above others? Why should you get a vote when you are not writing the patch? If you want input into the process, provide constructive feedback on the next update, spend some time talking respectfully to those that have been a part of the development/patching process, see if they will let you into the development forum, and then work as part of that team.

Failing that, write your own mod that changes the parameters you think should be changed, test it, and if it works, let people know. Otherwise, be happy that someone in the community is putting effort into improving this game, which is now almost 6 years old.

Sheesh.

Ha, ha, that guy is really angry. Really funny how tough people get when they can hide behind a screen.

What he forgets is that I paid $$$ for this game. I have every right to voice my opinion and criticize the game or the patching process if I don't like it. Think about those people on Steam who pay $80 for a game that is full of bugs and never really worked as advertised.

Sheesh!!!

(in reply to CTKnudsen)

Post #: 10

RE: Patching Process - 9/12/2015 6:15:06 AM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

Worse than it is now? Really? But why waste even more time soliciting opinions before doing a patch? Morvael has been patching the game for a good while now, and taking feedback throughout. Why should he listen to your criticisms above others? Why should you get a vote when you are not writing the patch? If you want input into the process, provide constructive feedback on the next update, spend some time talking respectfully to those that have been a part of the development/patching process, see if they will let you into the development forum, and then work as part of that team.

Failing that, write your own mod that changes the parameters you think should be changed, test it, and if it works, let people know. Otherwise, be happy that someone in the community is putting effort into improving this game, which is now almost 6 years old.

Sheesh.

Ha, ha, that guy is really angry. Really funny how tough people get when they can hide behind a screen.

What he forgets is that I paid $$$ for this game. I have every right to voice my opinion and criticize the game or the patching process if I don't like it. Think about those people on Steam who pay $80 for a game that is full of bugs and never really worked as advertised.

Sheesh!!!

I paid for the game too and it has been worth every penny and more. Morvael has done an incredible job making WitE even better and provided his services when GG and others had basically moved on to WitW. The upcoming patch 1.08.05 will address more concerns of the community. It's an extremely difficult challenge to make a game on this level without adjusting with patches. The players that have time to play endless hours are able to find unintended exploits which then need to be addressed.

All I've heard from you is unsubstantiated claims about the balance of the game. You can throw out insults about the game and others, but how is that helping anything? If you want to have a tantrum, do it on your own time and off the forum. But if you want to be constructive and help, like many others, than please take the time and document your issues with proper evidence. I can tell you that Morvael is very willing to listen and discuss with anybody that has provided to him documentation of issues.

< Message edited by jzardos -- 9/12/2015 7:16:22 AM >

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 11

RE: Patching Process - 9/12/2015 6:40:36 AM

Aurelian

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Design by community brought about the Edsel.

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Post #: 12

RE: Patching Process - 9/12/2015 4:59:34 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

..

What he forgets is that I paid $$$ for this game. I have every right to voice my opinion and criticize the game or the patching process if I don't like it. Think about those people on Steam who pay $80 for a game that is full of bugs and never really worked as advertised.

Bozo

think you have to be a bit more fair minded here. Even with the move to sell it on Steam I doubt this game is exactly bringing in much revenue for 2*3. That it is still subject to active patching and game play improvements at this stage is hugely to their credit. That Morvael and Deniss are doing anything more than bug chasing is even more impressive.

Its a hard game to balance. We are all aware it tends to run away with too few dampening effects. Equally, the only real test for balance is PBEMs and its a slow game. Much over 100 turns per year is quite impressive so its no surprise that we are only just seeing a batch of games in late 1942 and I think that has shown the extent to which some changes have imbalanced things. But as elsewhere, the old morale rules had a bug, so one (regular) problem is making a design change and remove a bug can result in too much effect.

From reading his interventions, I think Morvael is aware of balance issues and the on going debates about how the game is playing. He's also an active player, so its well grounded stuff. But it can't be 'by vote', in the end the game code hasn't been thrown open, its still a managed patching process.

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Post #: 13

RE: Patching Process - 9/25/2015 5:47:23 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Joined: 10/13/2013
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Bozo ! Good to see you still adding to the discussion. I have agreed with many of your postings in the past, but you and I both know that proper "tweaking" of game balance is a matter of art and not democracy. Fortunately we have a proven "artist" in Morvael... he has done much to repair dysfunctional parts of the game and has been very attentive to postings by the players where issues have been raised. So just keep posting your comments and trust that Morvael does consider them. He's done a great job of it in the past in my opinion.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 14

RE: Patching Process - 9/26/2015 11:49:28 AM

HMSWarspite

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Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
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Bozo, I don't know if English is your native language, and I am always aware that subtle shades of meaning can be lost on the internet. However your tone comes across as challenging (not in a good way) and negative. If this is your intent, well, it seems a little odd in a post aimed at pointing out that players might want a say (democratic mods process). A little like a dictator complaining that people aren't being nice to him ;)

If that is not your intent, you might get on better if you asked neutral questions, and listened to answers.Saying the game is full of bugs for example is misleading. Please list some. A bug is an error in the code. You are commenting on design features you don't agree with. These are not bugs.

This game is a business/hobby for lots of people, and has never been a democracy. It has never claimed to be one. It does listen to users, and there are many active discussions on the game.

Finally, I think people always think that changes to the game are 'free'. I am not talking about how much is changed for the game. I am talking about development time. If a feature or change takes a month to code, test and release, you can have 12 a year (max). Thus they are not free, and choices are always to be made. It is always a question of which ones cannot be done with the resources not 'why don't you listen to the players'.

Oh, and most players are wrong most of the time (me included!)

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Post #: 15

RE: Patching Process - 9/26/2015 7:06:07 PM

comte

Posts: 2358
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From: Be'eri, Hadarom, Israel
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Bozo I'm wondering after all your criticism of this game what East Front Games do you think are better? Also what are your favorite computer war games?

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Post #: 16